Jun 28 2007
Will The GOP Honor Representative Government?
There is a lot of speculation running out there that the immigration bill will fail its cloture vote test this morning. Clearly it will be close. But I think there are enough GOP members who honor the process of democracy more than winning on one issue. After years of bitching and moaning about how all conservatives want is an up-or-down vote on measures dear to them, and after years of Bush being in their corner for them, I think they will take salvaging the process over the immigration bill.
Why? Primarily because they are losing the battle and destroying the party. They are not convincing anybody. While Rassmussen runs polls about “amnesty” the polls about ‘guest workers’ and ‘paths to legal status’ show the same lopsided support. They know deep down the red herrings they floated failed and made them look either petty or like they keep grasping for technicalities to cover up for something. We had the canard no one does anything about the issue – while the bill’s opponents propose the “Do Nothing Now” strategy! That was irony at its best.
We had the myth we could not process criminal record checks from fingerprints in 24 hours because some people confused a passport with a fingerprint check. OK, so some are little less edcuated on the finer details of law enforcement (a surprising number of which hold law degrees – figures). We had the myth we couldn’t process 12 million fingerprint checks without serious investment. I busted that myth when I noted the FBI’s IAFIS fingerprint system, the largest in the world with connections to major international systems, had processed 100,000 prints a day. And it is easy to expand capacity. That made the check for criminal records a paltry 3 month affiar – if all the illegals came in on day one, which we know is unrealistic fantasy.
Recently a reader posted a real bizarre concern. Seems we are not a perfect species and we have imperfect systems. I guess Ted Kennedy was forced to admit our 97.5% accuracy rate in records management would create 300,000 errors if used on 12 million people. Oh well, I guess some people panic at the mention of typos. Heaven knows I create a lot of typos and I have seen the spelling police out there.
But this last example proved the silliness and vacuousness of the opponents. Some of the worst of the far right have likened illegal immigration to a cancer on our society. Hyperventilating as usual, it was a good analogy to address with the 97.5% accuracy rate. The deniers, the DO NOTHING NOW types, are pretty responding to the medicine for this supposed cancer by saying “no thanks, I will live with the cancer until I find a cure that is guaranteed 100% effective”. And people wonder why I call them ‘amnesty hypochondriacs”.
This bill will be more than 70% effective. I doubt it will reach 95% – but future adjustments can get it there. That range of 70-95% effective is damn good for new policy, but reasonable. It is not the doom and gloom fantasies of the far right and or the far left. So it is not the bane of our existence as the hypcochondriacs claim. The bane of our existence is hyperventilating exaggeration that insults wide swaths of this country who did nothing seriously wrong. THAT is what needs to deported – the unreasonable hate.
One of the worst myths from the far right is Mexico is a criminal, socialistic, disease ridden place which is trying take over this country. Mexico has its problems, but few countried on this planet have our standard of living. They are all lesser places to some degree. So using that as some reason to insult a people and a culture is the purist of the ugly American stereotypes and is why people hesitate our efforts to protect ourselves internationally. But even here at home that kind of biased rhetoric does damage. The irony of the far right’s arguments can be seen in the fact those people who left Mexico (and other places south), who left their families behind and wandered at great personal risk into a foreign land, did so because they too saw how much better America was. And they stayed and brought their family here and raised them because they wanted to share in the American dream. They were not bringing disease and crime, they were fleeing it.
So to claim those who come here illegally (and many legal residents and citizens once were here illegally) are the disease ridden criminals of a corrupt culture is as insulting and unfair as it gets. Every society has its criminals. At this point, with the ludicrous irony flying, I cannot help but note that Geoffrey Dhalmer (sp?), the human cannibal, was pure bread American. As I watch the far right turn on its own one could forgive someone from using the broad stroke exaggeration method of debate to make a connection!
But a better analogy is Tammy Faye Baker. When I hear Hannity whine about how he cannot believe what is happening in this country, and Laura Ingraham whine about process and procedure, all I see are Tammy Faye’s with dripping mascara running down their cheeks. They have cried ‘wolf’ so many times and nothing has been there that they have become comical. The ultimate irony in this comedy is the proposed solution: DO NOTHING NOW! This is such a bad situation and there is no hope in this bill the only answer is to do…..
Nothing! But of course when people point out the flaws in the opposition, the harm they are doing to the nation and the party, and the true bigots and racists in their midsts, the opposition goes Tammy-Faye on us. “El Presidente Jorge insulted us, the triator”. The irony is so thick it is amazing. So now we will see who are Senators, and who are Tammy-Faye’s crying out because they know God put them on this Earth to save America from the evil illegal aliens raising their families down the street, and of course from the dreaded typos in the government’s records. We have a choice. Either be serious and let America’s representative bodies VOTE on these measures, or listen to the hysterics for another 10 years.
I think a lot of people realize it is better to pass this, stop the civil war, and make more changes later. But then there are the suicidal ones who would be happy to fall on their sword and leave the GOP in the minority for decades – and see real amnesty arise when Dems take control of both houses of Congress and the Oval office. Because that is the choice they fail to see. This IS the best Hutchison, Chambliss and others will see in their lifetime. It is all down hill from here.
I suspect cooler heads will prevail, they will honor their core beliefs in representative government, many will honor a promise they made to El Presidente Jorge to give this thing a fair vote, and many will realize this is the best they will see for decades to come. That might tip the GOP from disaster. But what do I know. I thought they would avoid disaster in 2006. And right now they don’t even have people like me in their corner any more.
134 Responses to “Will The GOP Honor Representative Government?”
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AJ, I have to disagree.
A good deal of the opposition has come from the way that this whole bill was run around the normal comittee and amendment process. It’s something that screams of SOMETHING Very Bad being slipped through.
And the idea of passing a bad bill and amending it later? You’ve been around long enough to know better than that. The inertia built up by a bad law is tremendous…and there are always people who benefit from bad legislation who will fight tooth and nail to defend it.
What is needed is to either send this bill through the normal process…or, better still, kill it dead as a doornail, flush it and all the animosity that it has garnered away, and start from scratch.
Which is not nearly as hard as you might suppose. As I’ve mentioned before, there is trade space. A Barrier Wall and serious assimilation efforts would buy legalization for illegal immigrants currently in the country. They would have to either leave quickly or pay a fine….and I would set that fairly high, and not bother trying to determine back taxes. Then really go after anyone who did NOT take advantage of the legalization period.
The key is the Barrier Wall. That is the sine qua non – NOTHING happens without it. Put that on the table first, and I think that everything else will fall into place.
I don’t see any chance of this bill passing anymore – even if it got through the Senate the House will spike it. Of course, there will never be any “barrier wall” either. I don’t think the Democrats will ever be able to pass an amnesty-only bill even if they are in the majority, however; I think we’ve reached a particularly poisonous moment in politics where both left and right are able to exercise an absolute veto over anything the other side proposes, which means drift, inaction, and endless infighting as far as the eye can see. (Your tax dollars at work!!!)
The only logical outcome of this mess is that the entire effort is going to collapse in acrimony and we’re going to spend another 10 – 20 years with things going on just as they are now. This issue has gotten way too poisonous for anyone to revisit in the forseeable future, and I don’t think this generation of legislaters will ever touch it again.
Now do I think this is a good outcome? No, hiding from problems until they get so big that they come and find you is generally not a wise course of action. But that’s what we’re choosing, and so we might as well plan for the consequences.
I’m glad I’m starting to feel separated from this whole mess or I’d be on my way to having a stroke over all this. I’m awaiting the vote today only to see what the blogosphere’s reaction will be. I’m guessing that if the cloture vote succeeds, the reaction will be near-apocalyptic, with lots of veiled suggestions that people who voted “aye” need to be “taken out by any means necessary.” And yet, this is only a vote to ALLOW an up-or-down vote on the hated bill.
(This is like the reaction to Harriet Miers, when people were yelling that she absolutely HAD to be stopped, stopped COLD, before she even got near the Senate, because if she somehow managed to push her way into the Senate before the judicial committee, why, it would be TOO LATE TO STOP HER! [rolling my eyes])
Aitch:
Thanks for the chuckle this muggy am. You hit the nail on the head.
AJ–
Funny how you’re complaining about conservatives “not honoring democracy” by not voting for cloture. What happened to all your “but it’s legal!” hysteria of Tuesday? Just wondrin…
“I am fine with it. It’s legal so it is fine with me.”
I’m wondering about the pork stuffed into the bill.
Is that OK too?
You know, since it’s legal and all.
Just askin’
>One of the worst myths from the far right is Mexico is a criminal, >socialistic, disease ridden place
Surely you would acknowledge that the Mexican government is a scummy racist cartel, would you not?
As for the pork: Look, we have a Democratic Congress now. Are we now supposed to go apeshit every time a bill comes up that has pork in it? I don’t like it, but I do understand that sometimes you have to pay a price to get what you want, or at least something you can live with, particularly in D.C., and particularly if your side isn’t running things there anymore.
I don’t think AJ understands what Representative Government means. It means that the people in some designated area elect someone to go to the seat of government and represent them, in two ways: 1. what is best for the people that elected him and 2. what is best for the country.
Now clearly, polls indicate that from70-80% are opposed to the bill, so from that perspective, representing that interest would be to not pass the bill. Now from the interest of the country. To pass a bill that makes the situation much worse, as this bill does is not in the interest of the country, so it should not be passed.
This is a Republic and it IS NOT majority rule. That’s why the Senate has rules that require Supermajorities for some votes, so that the majority CAN NOT always rule.
Passing this bill, would be similar to attempting to abolish slavery with just a majority vote. Like letting more illegals come in would be like just letting more slaves come in. while the MAJORITY might have been for that, it was not best for the country so it would rightfully be wise for the country to require a super majority in the Senate to allow slavery to continue.
This bill is no different, if we’re going to give amnesty to 12+ million people, it should require a super majority in the Senate to allow it.
That’s REPRESENTATIVE GOVERNMENT. Back room deals and bypassing the committee functions are NOT representative government.
So when AJ is saying this:
“Clearly it will be close. But I think there are enough GOP members who honor the process of democracy ”
he has lost sight of what representative government is and has gone off on a tangent about the “process of democracy” Nope AJ, representative government is a” process of republic” I’m gonna just assume you either didn’t attend your Civics classes or have forgotten some to the subjects you had.
In either case, Representative Government is doing just fine.
Looks like they won’t AJ. Fox News reporting that it will die.
A sad day for America.
Sen Mel Martinez is speaking now. He says present laws can’t be enforced, we need this new law.
Now that’s representative government. We pass laws that mean nothing so now let’s pass another law that means nothing.
What is it about this law that makes it enforceable when others on immigration aren’t.
Simple. The others would have controlled illegals, this one makes them legal..
When he immigrated to this country, they taught him double speak very well.
A sad day for America.
not for the 80% that are opposed to the bill.
I suspect I’m gonna see some writing with tears within an hour or so.
OK, so Mexico is corrupt. AJ says “so what?” Nevermind that it is the citizens of Mexico that allow the corruption to continue. Yes, AJ, Mexico is a disease ridden, corrupt socialistic government. Maybe the citizens are not disease ridden, but the Pan-Am socialist government is. Mexico is the wealthyist Spanish speaking nation in the world, yet it remains third world. Why is that? Well, just take a look at the second richest man in the world, Carlos Slim, a Mexican who made his billions in the telecom industry and who recently said that he did not understand Bill Gates giving so much money away and that he was not interested in being thought of as a “charity”. So while his own people live in cardboard shacks, he maintains his wealth is not for redistribution. That is basically the Mexican hiarchy attitude and is a prime reason that Mexico is the toilet it is. So Mexico continues it’s process of exporting it’s own citizens and importing Central and South Americans who will work for even less.
And of course, all those who sneak across our borders in the middle of the night are just doing so to earn a living for their families. How easy to ignore that while illegals represent about 4% of our population, the number of illegals incarcerated in California (which does not prosecute illegals for just being illegal) accounts for 50% of the prison population. You could use that “only to work” carnard if the crime factor was not so heavily swayed to show otherwise.
Yesterday, Senator Cornyn, who was a former state attorney general, stated loud and clear that there was no way to complete a total background check within the 24 hours alloted for the process. But I am sure you know better.
You want to point out that Jeffry Dalmer was pure American but you ignore that Angel Resendez, the worst serial killer in our history, was pure illegal.
While there are those in our halls of Congress that would have us become more like foreign nations (i.e. socialist) let’s just review some things in the Mexican Constitution:
Immigrants and foreign visitors are banned from public political discourse (protest marches included)
Immigrants and foreigners are denied certain basic property rights
Immigrants are denied equal employment rights (when ATT bought out MexTel, ATT had to prove that the management they sent to Mexico to clean up the mess that was MexTel, could do jobs that no Mexican citizen could do. Also, the fees and kickbacks to allow ATT management into Mexico to work often surpassed the $15,000 mark. I know this for a fact)
Immigrants and naturalized citizens may never become members of the clergy
Private citizens may arrest illegal immigrants and hand them over to authorities
Immigrants may be expelled from Mexico for any reason without due process
This is the same nation that is demanding that we take as many of it’s poor and uneducated as we can possibly cram in, no matter the cost to the American people while they are raked over the coals for their treatment of their own illegal population by the Human Rights Council of the U.N.
No, AJ, this bill is not totally bad. But the bad parts so far outweigh the good that it will simply be a tool for higher taxes and the violation of American’s own civil rights. You have to wonder where the ACLU is when a bill says that an employer can be prosecuted for refusing to hire an illegal over an American citizen or when the DREAM Act is part of the deal that gives illegal students benefits no available to American students. But we know that the ACLU is not interested in backing Americans, don’t we?
As far as being a scam, this bill ranks right up there with global warming. How in the hell did the “clay pigeon” amendment appear on a Hispanic pro-illegal group website before it was even given to the Senators yesterday morning? How is a pro-illegal organization, funded by George Soros, managing to have direct lines to Senator’s offices when normal Americans are getting nothing but buzy signals and recordings? But none of this bothers you, does it?
I have said many times that all politics are personal. It is obvious you have a vested interest in seeing this travesty passed. Perhaps it is time you come clean about that. I see no one who would slam you for being honest.
If this bill is passed, parts of it will be challanged in the SCOTUS. None of it will be enforced except the amnesty part. The ACLU will challange the fines; municipalities and states will challange the costs heaped on the states for social welfare programs, students will challange the in-state tuition provision, on and on and on. So no, AJ, the argument will not be over. It will only be beginning. Meanwhile, resentment toward immigration of any kind, legal or illegal, will build. And that is the sad part of the whole Shamnesty scam.
Just posted on Drudge:
FLASH: Senate switchboard has been shut down due to overwhelming calls: Sen. Sessions
If people are calling their Senators then that’s what representative government is all about.
If this bill had followed the proper route of committee meetings and cost analysis in the sunshine and not in back rooms then the people may have had a different attitude about the legislation.
That range of 70-95%
Is that the range of grades you would want your brain surgeon to have achieved in his brain surgery classes?
…Looks like they won’t AJ. Fox News reporting that it will die…
Oh, happy day!
A failure of Representative Government, Sen Reid is speaking now.
Reid is talking about how immigration enriched his ancestors.
hmmm, must be in the same real estate deals Harry are in….
whoops, now he’s playing the race card. He says his skin is very white. Guess he forgot to look in the mirror.
Drudge is reporting that the Senate switchboard has been shut down due to overwhelming call volume.
Guess they’re tired of listening to the people they represent.
Now he tells the truth, If each of us were given just a few days to draft an immigration bill, we could do a better job. Whoa!!!!
in just a few days, we could draft a better bill.
Debate today Pro side got 50 minutes, opp side got 10, Pro side has now gone over, Opp side asked for more time, not gonna get it.
Hey, representative government.
No tears, just disgust. Nothing is done in todays world without organized forces.
The unions are delighted today. As are the David Dukites.
And that makes me sick.
vote is in. first count Ayes 19 nays21
Webb against
Looks like the good Senator from VA is not so bad on this issue after all.
ayes 29 n36
like Webb’s vote, pornographer or not
42 nays
A.J. – you, my Mom and my husband are the eternal optimists. I don’t know what to expect at this point and I can barely follow the machinations or sort the information being flung about.
And I love your Tammy Faye Baker comparison – it is perfect for the Lauras and Seans. It also invokes the self-righteous Bible thumping tendency of so many of the loudmouths who apparently see no conflict whatsoever between their spiteful rhetoric & scorched earth tactics and their Christian beliefs. This is beginning to really bother me.
Aitch – ditto your feeling of separation. I’ve about worn myself out with worry and disgust. Who knows where this hydra-headed monster is headed next, but no matter what happens with this vote, I do not sense that the situation will cool down anytime soon. A virtual industry has grown up around this issue, and a number of people with platforms sstand to profit from continued flogging. At the expense of the GOP and the nation, in my opinion.
50 nays, somebody obviously miscounted on their prediction close?
I’ve been lectured on “Representative Government”, and I’m humbled!
I know truly for the first time in my life, know what it means.
It means:
a) deals conducted in backrooms
b) it means votes bought with promises of Pork!
c) it means debate cut off with parlimentarian charades (but “legal”, so that’s okay!)
d) it means more deals conducted in backrooms on amendments
e) it means that if you belong to the 20% of the people in the country that support this bill, you get to label the 80% who oppose it as “bigots” and “right wingers” and haters of “representative government”
f) it means you actually have a Senator of the United States, say this, on the floor of the Senate, just now:
Arlen Specter believes that people who call and e-mail Senators do not represent America.
g) it means that the race card is played, you’re own President, who you’ve supported thru THICK AND THIN, insults you! It means that if you refuse to join the Echo Chamber, and actually think for yourself, you are labelled a bigot, a racist, and an “immigration hypochondriac”
h) it means that your Senator’s votes are for sale, to Tyson Chicken, Hormel and Armour Meat Packaging; the Construction Industry, and big Agri-business
i) it means that debate, and PLEAS to rationally discuss, and debate the bill, which was birthed like a Cockroach in the shadows and choking cigarsmoke of backroom wheeling and dealing, are ignored, shouted down, and ridiculed!
j) it means that so-called “myths debunked” are in fact, “myths created”
ad naseum..
But, as Julius Ceaser said: “the Victor writes the History, the loser reads about it!”
And thus, I just KNOW, that AJ won’t have any problem with the outcome of this vote, because as he said yesterday:
“True Americans show their love of country in debating in a civil, respectable manner, and then honoring the process WHEN THEY LOSE. ”
and
“Being a patriot is easy when the debates go your way. But true patriots shine in how they lose. ”
These are AJ’s unadulterated words, unchanged in ANY way; so I know that as a “true patriot”, AJ will honor today’s vote, and respect it, because debate, and then accepting the loss in a civil manner, is what it is all about, isn’t it?
So, I agree with AJ; we’ve had nothing but Civil Debate on this board, we agreed, the vote went against us, the “minority”, we accept the loss as we should, civilly, and we will now move on, as we should. And most important, “Representative Government” worked.
Final, ayes 46 nayes 53
Thank goodness Representative Government works
majority couldn’t carry majority
Now today you should have taken off for an important vote, but it might not have made your day.
I knew last night that the cloture will fail. I believe that AJ had intended that this bill be worked on and improved all along.
Well, why can’t they just find ways to enforce existing laws because today’s Congress just won’t be able to pass significant bills except maybe one or two. And even the 111th.
Good grief. 53-46. Who the heck thought so many would switch from yes to no?
…Final, ayes 46 nayes 53…
Good. Back to the drawing board…
Well unless a mitacle happens this is it till 2009. THe only thing now is to try like hell to mitigate the damage in the hispanic community and that needs to start tommorow.
If not we might have just given crucial Western States to Hillary. At least we can expect the bile we have been hearing to die down as Talk rado and others move on. At least that is a positive
Lurker, don’t make excuses,
“I believe that AJ had intended that this bill be worked on and improved all along.”
AJ’s intent was that this bill be crammed down our throats, and then discuss amending it.
Whatever, as Dale says, “I know that as a “true patriot”, AJ will honor today’s vote, and respect it, because debate, and then accepting the loss in a civil manner, is what it is all about, isn’t it?”
well said Dale. I can accept the outcome, as a ‘true patriot’
SallyVee you are right on.
Sue, didn’t I say the vote would be 50s vs 40s, i just had ayes and nayes backward. Thankfully.
what exactly has been won?
Just dropped in to gloat! A great day for the citizens of these United States.
BigLsuGuy
“mitigate the damage in the hispanic community ”
you mean figure out another way to let them be able to vote for the Dimmicrats. Legally now, they won’t be able to, but maybe a backroom deal can be worked out so they can vote for the Dimmi’s whether legal or not.
The Klan Grand Dragon is speaking now. He voted Nay, guess the old racist roots came out.
“Just dropped in to gloat! ”
Well Thomas, you picked a fine day for it.
We, the American citizens, need to keep the pressure on this group of yahoos and force them to come up with something better.
Something workable and effective.
In the sunshine with civil debate.
Not in the smoky, dank, backrooms of the Capitol.
Through the normal process, not stuffed up our rears or down our throats.
The best way to start this whole process is to enforce the law. ETL. We have laws on the books right now, this minute, that, if enforced, would begin turning our ship of state away from the iceburg that is clearly in our path.
On one hand you have big business who wants cheap labor (essentially a slave class) and on the other you have politicians who want votes.
All the while our borders, both north and south, are being neglected during a time of war.
Who among us will be shocked the next time we are attacked and, lo and behold, we find out that those who are guilty just waltzed in unchallenged? I won’t.
Satrist, that is the question. I wonder what Thomas is gloating about….winning a battle and losing a war? Brilliant, just brilliant.
I remember Harry Reid saying regarding the Patriot act, “We killed the bill!” .
The unions are thrilled.
So we have now witnessed the pathology of the Right, imho.
My only thrill will be seeing all these angry people remain angry. What a way to enjoy life, angry and hard-hearted all the time. Glad I don’t have to live with that.
Brown:
Well, at least you mentioned our northern border. Call me stupid if you wish, but it’s the northern border that bothers me the most as far as terrorists “waltzing in unchallenged”.
Well, THAT was pretty decisive.
Now, it’s time to take this bill, take all the animosity that went with it, and use it to light our 4th of July barbecues. Considering how much heat the issue has generated, we should be able to take a grill from cold iron to ready-to-cook in about a second.
Then, after everybody has taken a nice vacation, we can start to do some serious work on an immigration bill that will meet with public approval.
Which is eminently feasible. As I’ve said before, there is trade space available.
Satrist,
You’re right.
If a guy with TB on the watch list can come on in unchallenged then who knows who is following right behind him.
The whole thing is a mess. Top and bottom.
Of course, the southern border figures in there as well. Remember the Fort Dix Six? Was it three or four of them who came in from down below?
“vote for the Dimmicrats. Legally now, they won’t be able to, but maybe a backroom deal can be worked out so they can vote for the Dimmi’s whether legal or not”.
Enforcement as has been pointed out that Vote has been trending Republican for years. Last the year the background bile caused us problems.
I suggest the over the top rants agains Hispanics stop and how they all think alike. Those attacks do produce defensive group think. Mitigating the hispanic fallout as to voting is a serious concern among those that do not want to see Hillary in 09 or more lossess in the Senate.
Someone has to be concerned about it and work on that
Ivehadit:
I always enjoyed your posts at Lucianne’s site. I would spend hours reading there but it’s more like minutes that I spend there now. Was thrilled to see you posting on AJ’s site when I began visiting here.
It’s ironic that Rush is the one that pointed me to AJ’s web site and now I don’t listen to Rush anymore. Medved is the only one I listen to now and my day is much more pleasant.
I am just testing the waters. I submitted a post an hour ago and it has not made it up. Perhaps I said something (again) that was true that AJ could not dispute?
Testing……………testing
keep testing. you’re still not getting through (smile)
Thank you, Satirist. And, I am with you…hardly anywhere to go to read intelligent discussion anymore….Thank goodness for AJ.
And I think now, I have solidly become a Rudy fan!
Wonder what the future holds….
And I want to see what legislation Rush and Sean and Laura and Mark get put into LAW. Stop the talk. Make it happen…
I’m waiting…
And you all better not EVER WHINE about cloture being SIXTY VOTES. Ever.
Sixty=a Majority. Who’d a thunk it.
This is my last post here, AJ. It is a gloat post, straight up.
Coleman. No.
Nelson. No.
Webb. No.
Burr. No.
Those are the ones I mentioned so I’ll stop there. I will note that 14 democrats voted no. Keep that in mind when you trash republicans for killing this bill. And also remember that today’s vote is “just some realism from the Hill and how it works”.
Later.
Ouch!
That’s gonna leave a mark.
Well. So the status quo won today. Now what? I guess we build the wall. Oh wait, that’ll still take a long while. How about enforcing the laws? Oh wait, they weren’t being enforced (supposedly).
Wait, what did we win again?
(underwhelmed and shaking my head with bemusement)
Kay Bailey Hutchison is now asking the Senate to continue to address the problem of illegal immigration by stopping the flow of illegals, drug runners, human smugglers, etc.
She is drawing the line between terrorists, drug dealers and honest immigrants. “Just because this effort failed, doesn’t mean we did not make progress. If we start fresh we can come up with a better approach. American people do not believe there is a effort toward security”.
Catch and release shut down. OTMs now being held and not released. BP agents tell her OTM entry is down.
Progress made, not enough. A renewed commitment to border security is needed. She is asking for the $4.4 billion for border security. Universal agreement on this. Americans demanding “absolutely, first committment, border security”.
Tamper proof I.D. for employers. Need to work on guest worker program immediately.
Problem with this bill. Tough issue about those that are already here. Enforcement not done, blind eye turned. That was the hang-up.
Hutchison trying to keep the argument for reform going. But not until we secure the borders. And end illegal immigration. Then handle people here illegally. Some of whom have homes, etc.
Take time; look at consequences of doing nothing; have fresh approach that would secure borders then follow up with dealing with illegals.
OT – Rumsfeld’s negotiating with publisher regarding his book. I don’t read political books but this is one I will definitely read.
Aitch, who is responsible for the status quo? Kennedy, who pushed for legislation to deal with this in both 1965 and 1986 and then did nothing toward forcing administrations to follow the laws? The current administration under whom illegal immigration has rapidly increased? Lawyers who have tied up the deportation orders of criminals in the courts for 20 years?
You cannot lay the “status quo” at the feet of the current GOP. Billy Bob was president for 8 years. What did his administration do? Zip.
Ivehadit & Satirist – I am with you too. Lucianne has deteriorated into some sort of tinfoil manufacturing plant. It’s embarrassing. Did you notice the photo yesterday – I think it was Soldiers Field – Go Bears! But the imagery of a giant mob was right in sync with the moment, and with the intoxicating pleasure of this “kill.”
I’m a Rudy fan too. But so far he has tried to have his immigration stance both ways and I’m not sure that will hold up. I think he’s right in line with you and me, but he is certainly reading the tea leaves and must now be wary of “the base.” If he starts pandering in that direction, I will be distraught. What I worry about is this kill portends a huge push for Fred, who seems to be mouthing the hard line position on immigration. I do not think Fred is smart enough to beat Hillary. He seems to have cast his lot with the “net roots” or nut roots, as has John Edwards. I would surely vote for Fred if he’s the nominee, but my enthusiasm will be zilch.
I don’t see the fascination with Fred either. Of course I will vote for him but there’s just something about him……
I hope I’m wrong and down the road I also see him as da man.
BTW my login name isn’t satIrist, it’s just satrist. Don’t be offended by my correcting you. I just don’t want to mislead anyone. If you think I’m a satIrist you will be expecting brilliant satire from me and I will disappoint you. My login name is just a combination of my first
and last names. Has nothing to do with satire. Again, please don’t be offended by my pointing this out.
Aitch, who is responsible for the status quo? Kennedy, who pushed for legislation to deal with blah blah blah blah blah! You cannot lay the “status quo” at the feet of the current GOP blah blah blah!
Meanwhile, all I was saying is that I’m underwhelmed about this “victory.” Watching people gloat about this is going to be like watching people gloat over winning a plastic fake turd on a game show.
Well lets look at why cloture failed and by such a heavy margin.
Two main reasons came into play.
First the senators were hearing it loud and clear from the voters
Second if cloture had passed the only amendements that would have been able to be considered in the 30 hour window were the 21 remaining amendmendts in Reid’s cluster bomb amendment package.
If you look at these amendments most would have failed due to their content.
Reid being Speaker had priority for amendments under senate rules and each of his amendments would have to be considered in order before another amendment could surface.
So essentially the bill was nearly frozen at it’s current state and furthur “improvement” was slim to none in chance.
In fact with only 30 hours after cloture, it was doubtful that all of Reids amendments would even come up for consideration and the most likely to fail were first in the list.
The traitors lost one more time.
I start to to be optimistic about the fate of this great country, again!!!!
The traitors lost one more time.
I start to to be optimistic about the fate of this great country, again!!!!
Aitch, no one is “gloating” over this. We are all very aware that our government has let us down when it comes to enforcing our laws for the last 42 years. Now we are insisting that they do what they promised us they would do in both 1965 and especially 1986. Stop the bleeding then bandage the wound.
Are you confortable with a 1,000 page bill that would have been a judical nightmare? I’m not. Are you happy with giving illegals in-state tuition while denying it to American citizens who live in another state? I’m not. Are you happy with a system that says if you break the law you will be rewarded? If so, let’s just give anmenty to all murders, then we will have no more murderers.
No one is gloating. We view this as a beginning to force our government to keep their promises that they have made for 40 years and did nothing. Doing nothing IS the status quo. That is what needs to end. Not shoving a racially preferenced bill down our throats.
….but just winning a plastic turd seems more desirable than having one rammed down your throat…
Repubs killing their party….what are the Dem naysayers doing…lending diversity?
“The traitors lost one more time.
I start to to be optimistic about the fate of this great country, again!!!! ”
Well that will be helpful in getting the party to come together. I just pray Justicve Stevens retires and there is something to rally around
Satrist – got it. Thanks.
Here’s the thing about the ongoing “debate” such as it is. The Talkers have grossly and maliciously misrepresented the President’s position and many of the details of the bill that were on the table. They failed to point out any of the measures that had already been taken by GWB, etc. They succeeded in painting the administration as sinister and incompetent, thus directly assisting our internal & external enemies. I think as this plays out, some genuine confusion will emerge among the “middle folks” who took the loudmouths word as gospel. And we won’t know until election day 2008, where the silent majority decides to put its trust.
Example, when I read the report above from Retire05 about Kay Bailey H’s speech, I think to myself: huh? I thought that was all the stuff you guys were supposed to be working out in this bill… but it had to be killed… why? The only guy who’s been consistent throughout is GWB, but he’s been marked as evil incarnate by the people on my own side of the aisle. Again…huh? And now they’re going wobbly on the war at the same time? A lot of damage has been done on the road to today’s “victory” I am afraid. It’ll be interesting to see how the loudmouths attempt to regain their composure.
I would say the test is more…will the people who tried to cut-off debate and ram this bill down America’s throat….accept their defeat should it happen and work to make a new bill that would garner more support? Or will they resort to calling names, and playing chicken-little?
This bill failed, because THIS is what these back room, dealing, Kennedy sychophants, tried to pull off:
All illegal aliens who claim to have been in the United States since January 1, 2007 would have up to two years to appear at an U.S. Citizenship and Immigration Services (USCIS) office, drop off a completed application for a “Z” visa, pay a $1,000 fine (plus $500 for each spouse, child, and parent living here illegally with them) and submit their fingerprints. USCIS would attempt to check their fingerprints against one or more criminal databases and, as long as fewer than three misdemeanors and no felonies showed up within 24 hours, USCIS would be required to grant them “probationary” amnesty in the form of a work permit and legal permission to remain in the United States until their Z visa application was adjudicated.
and because it included this:
In case one amnesty is not sufficient, the proposal also includes both the DREAM Act amnesty for illegal aliens who graduate from U.S. high schools and the AgJOBS amnesty for 1.5 million illegal alien agricultural workers.
anybody know what the “DREAM” act was?
Any ILLEGAL, that was magically made “Legal” overnight, and went and who did not have a High School education; if they went back to HS, and got their Degree, they would be given a FREE COLLEGE EDUCATION on the US Taxpayer!
That’s what the “DREAM” act was!
I KNEW I should’ve never endured a 19 month seperation, and paid over $10,000, and brought my wife over here LEGALLY!
I should’ve flown her to Mexico City, and paid some “mule” $6K, to smuggler across the Rio Grande..
and the bill also included THIS:
The employers of these newly amnestied aliens also would receive amnesty under the proposal. They would not be subject to fines or prosecution either for hiring the illegal aliens or for any tax fraud committed as a result.
and this:
Issuance of the Z visas, along with a new category of “Y” temporary foreign workers visas (see below), would be put on hold until the Secretary of Homeland Security could certify to the President that a series of “triggers” had been met:
Customs and Border Protection must have hired (not trained or deployed) a total of 18,000 Border Patrol agents;
The Department of Homeland Security must have installed 370 miles of border fence (about half the total miles of fencing required by the law passed by Congress and signed by the President at the end of the last Congress), along with some vehicle barriers and radar and camera towers, and deployed at least four unmanned aerial vehicles;
Immigration and Customs Enforcement must have 27,500 detention beds (the number it has now) and DHS must continue to detain removable aliens apprehended along the southern border;
DHS must have the tools to prevent illegal aliens from obtaining jobs, including the establishment of (though not the widespread use of) identification standards (presumably like those required by past laws, including the REAL ID Act) and an electronic work eligibility verification system (like the Basic Pilot); and
USCIS must be “processing and adjudicating in a timely manner” Z visa applications (since these are not supposed to be issued until the triggers are met, apparently, USCIS would be deciding them and saving them for later issuance).
and these “points” were also in the bill (h/t CQ Bog) (some actually good, but most BAD!)
POINT 1: Page 21, lines 12-16, apparently reinstated the 24-hour limit on probationary background checks. Remember when they promised to fix that so that no one would get a probationary card without passing the full background check? I guess they broke that promise.
POINT 2: Page 29, lines 12-end: The Z-visa has unlimited 4-year terms. I don’t think this is a change, but shouldn’t the immigrant at some point actually immigrate?
POINT 3: Page 33, lines 19-25: Z-visa non-immigrants over the age of 65 are not expected to maintain employment in order to remain eligible to be in the US. Again, why would they be here if they’re not working and not applying for a regular immigration status?
POINT 4: Page 48, lines 8-14: Interesting method here to ensure that Z-visa non-immigrants don’t get preferential treatment. The regulations set up a timing mechanism so that no Z-visa immigrants can file for permanent residency until 30 days after eligibility for those who applied for normal immigration on May 1, 2005. That means that illegals can’t “cut in line” ahead of anyone who applied on that date or before, but can be put ahead of legal immigrants who applied in the last two years.
POINT 5: Page 61, entire page: The language has changed in this section to allow access for all law-enforcement activity to the data gleaned from applications. Before, it was restricted to just immigration enforcement and national-security activities.
POINT 6: Page 67, lines 7-11: 80% of all penalties paid by the applicants will come through installment plans. I understand the need for this, but it puts the federal government on the hook for managing a payment system for 12 million new people, along with all of the other mandates in this bill.
POINT 7: Page 69, line 20: The DREAM Act, providing scholarships for the children of illegal immigrants, still exists in the bill.
POINT 8: Page 89-90, lines 22-04: The 24-hour limit on background checks still holds within the Ag Workers section (the temporary guest worker program). If it takes longer than 24 hours, they get their credentials. (h/t: commenter Redherkey)
POINT 9: Page 92, lines 14-15: Do I read this correctly? The new limit on guest-worker visas is now 1,500,000 — not counting dependent Z-A visas? Wasn’t this originally 400,000 and reduced by half later?
POINT 10: Pages 169-170: The employer fines seem rather daunting. The first tier fine for employing an illegal will be $5,000 per occurence. If an employer has been fined in the past for employing an illegal alien, it escalates to $10,000, and on up to $75,000 per occurence. If the ICE decides to enforce the law on employers — still a rather open point — it could get very expensive. I wonder if that applies to corporations as a whole, or each location separately.
POINT 11: Pages 227-8: The temporary worker program gets fleshed out more specifically here, and it appears to have a limit of 180,000 for “Y-visa nonimmigrants.” If so, what are the Z-A visas, and why do they have a cap of 1,500,000?
POINT 12: Page 276: This is an amendment that forces any probationary status to wait until after the security triggers have been met. It seems to me that this is another example of the many cross purposes of this bill, and it will serve to confuse both backers and opponents of this bill.
The also added an amendment yesterday, that allowed the suddenly “Legal” ILLEGALS, to sue American Employers for discrimination, IF they were not hired FIRST, before native born Americans, for jobs!
Yep, your “Representatives” at work!
Here’s an item to add to the Victory checklist, found in The Corner. Call me a lame brain or a mindless BushBot, but this leaves me in a state of stunned confusion with knots in my stomach… didn’t expect victory to feel so much like The Flu:
2008 Observation of the Day [Kathryn Jean Lopez]
An e-mail: “The real victory today for conservatives is that now all the presidential candidates on our side are free to run against Bush — they’ve just robbed the Dems’ of their most potent weapon.”
Dale
Sorry to say but I believe you may be wrong on one point.
I do not recall the Dream section being free college education, by my recollection it was instead giving them in state tuition rates.
I also note that the discount from out of state rates in many cases would almost offset the “fines” paid for their zcards.
SallyVee: I don’t know what you mean exactly by “victory checklist”; I’m not sure if you’re serious or being sarcastic?
Me, I too think it is a sad day; this is NOT a “victory”; this is sad!
It is sad, that a Senate, so out of touch with it’s constituents, tried to concoct a bill in backrooms, violate parlimentary procedures, stifle debate, limit dissent, obfruscate the true extent of the deception and giveaways they were about to soak the American people with, prevent the true nature of the bill from ever becoming public, ram it down the throat of a gullible and usually not-paying-attention public!
It is sad that supporters of this bill, including the President, Senators, and “others”, decided from the outset to attack and call people names, that are their BIGGEST SUPPORTERS!
It is sad, that a certain segment of people, are so afraid of the system, that they think it is better to accept a bill that is fatally flawed, rather than actually try to work out incremental, mini-steps, that could in fact, correct the mess that we currently have.
It is sad that rather than expose the manure that was being shovelled our way to the light of day; people labelled those of us, who actually SUPORTED Legal Immigration, a Guest Worker Program, etc., but wanted some of the most obvious and egregious problems discussed, and debated, immediately labelled us “immigration hypochondriacs” and “right wingers’ and bigots and racists, etc.
It is a sad day, I admit, because this is no “victory”
We NEED comprehensive Immigration Reform, a Sane LEGAL Guest worker program; MANY MORE H1-B Visas for Technical Talent; a verifiable Worker Program for Agi-Business and Construction Workers, who we NEED; SECURE BORDERS; a way to find and hunt down and deport Felons and Sex Offenders and Jihadis; Painful, and Enforceable Workplace Hiring practices, etc.
But the sadest thing of all is, is that the main reason this bill failed, is NOT because, as the critics of us Critics say because we are Anti-Mexican/Hispanic/bigots/racists, etc.; NO, this bill failed not because of that, it failed because the American Voter doesn’t trust their OWN GOVERNMENT! Their Own Senators, and on this issue, their own President.
This has nothing to do with us in general, being Anti-Hispanic, Anti-Mexican, Anti-immigrant; though all those nuts did come out, and people like AJ focused on them, to sell his “take” on the bill!
No, this bill failed, because your average American realized, that they’ve been sold a bill of goods on Immigration by the Kennedy-clowns in 1965 and 1986, and we about to be sold another bill go crap; and the American voter had had enough; we were not going to be FOOLED again; this was a demonstrable lack of Faith, in the ability and will and integrity of our own Government, to do the RIGHT THING!
And they worked very hard, to earn that lack of faith, by the way!
That’s why this bill failed, and that’s why it’s a “sad day”; it is no “victory”, I concur!
SallyVee
The key will be this. There is a lot of money made by political groups on the right on this immigration issue. IT is the cash cow that keeps on giving. We shall see if the rethoric falls down to repsectable levels and it is sane. If not then we shall suffer lossees.
Now we have got to mitigate the damage. The only hope is that whoever is nominated ont he GOP side can do that. Gulliani can salvage it. Huckabee can Salvage it. May just maybe Fred Thompson. THompson even though he was against the bill was careful in his remarks.
Mrs Lopez at NRO is at times cluessless I hate to say. She is much more interested it seems in going after “rinos” than the Dems at times. Running against Bush as a Republican will not produce any good results in the end. Also Mrs Lopez will be the first to demand that Bush do X over the next year and half at the same time talking about the great “Divorce”.
BUsh will not just fade away. HE is lameducked that is true. But if Conservatives of the far right wish to divorce themselves from Bush they might just find out that he might make deals without them.
Merlin: you don’t have to be “sorry”; if I make a mistake, I don’t mind if I’m corrected.
I read that on two websites, and I should’ve Googled it, before posting it.
Okay, this is the best article I can find on it; and I’m not sure if this is the version that was in the current bill that just got voted against, but it may have been, if someone knows for sure, please post.
This looks like it’s kinda what Merlin said, with a few “catches”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DREAM_Act
From the point of view of presidential politicking . . . Bush clearly got slapped down like an unruly 4th grader . . . and by the most antediluvian members of his own party. It is hard to conceive of a moment when presidential power and prestige has been at a lower ebb – perhaps Nixon just prior to his ignominious flight from Washington, D.C.
Next up for the president . . . the bare-knuckle brawl coming over subpoenas and bogus claims of privilege. Charges of “inherent contempt”. Actions by the Sergeants-at-arms of the House and Senate . . . and continuing death spiral of the viability of what is left of his presidency and his doomed legacy: George Walker Bush, the most incompentent president in the history of the Republic.
BigLsuFaker
“I suggest the over the top rants agains Hispanics stop and how they all think alike.”
I suggest you kiss my can. I didn’t say one damn thing about hispanics in that statement. I said illegals. Apparently you saw something racist or ethnic in that, but that is just the product of a small mind.
“Ken” “Bootlicker” “THECENTERISABUNGHOLE”, the most delusional Leftist Anti-American/Pro-Jihadi/Anti-Semitic anthropomorphic member of the Lunar Chiroptera colony, EVER!
Hey “Bootlicker”, er, sorry; “THECENTERISABUNGHOLE”; you need to Wipe your Mouth; your lips are shaped like “Ken’s” sphincter muscle!
“George Walker Bush, the most incompentent president in the history of the Republic. ”
Wow, I find that ironic. The Economy is going good and we are in a part of the year where daily we see the Bush influence on the Court. I suppose that doesn’t count for much since the events that cauded that was so last year
“Enforcement”
“I suggest you kiss my can. I didn’t say one damn thing about hispanics in that statement. I said illegals. Apparently you saw something racist or ethnic in that, but that is just the product of a small mind. ”
I was actually addressing it as the whole picture. I did not mean to single you out as being a anti hispanic bigot. I pop in here from time to time and don’t know if you endorse that 30 percent of bile I see on the net and elsewhere.
My point is that now the issue will not be picked back up we have got to mitigate the damage as much as we can among hispanic voters. The perception of the GOP is not good and we must do out part to correct that.. Even those that opposed the bill
“Enforcement”
“I suggest you kiss my can. I didn’t say one damn thing about hispanics in that statement. I said illegals. Apparently you saw something racist or ethnic in that, but that is just the product of a small mind. ”
I was actually addressing it as the whole picture. I did not mean to single you out as being a anti hispanic bigot. I pop in here from time to time and don’t know if you endorse that 30 percent of bile I see on the net and elsewhere.
My point is that now the issue will not be picked back up we have got to mitigate the damage as much as we can among hispanic voters. The perception of the GOP is not good and we must do out part to correct that.. Even those that opposed the bill
“Enforcement”
“I suggest you kiss my can. I didn’t say one damn thing about hispanics in that statement. I said illegals. Apparently you saw something racist or ethnic in that, but that is just the product of a small mind. ”
I was actually addressing it as the whole picture. I did not mean to single you out as being a anti hispanic bigot. I pop in here from time to time and don’t know if you endorse that 30 percent of bile I see on the net and elsewhere.
My point is that now the issue will not be picked back up we have got to mitigate the damage as much as we can among hispanic voters. The perception of the GOP is not good and we must do out part to correct that.. Even those that opposed the bill
And Bush shrinking the federal deficits faster than the speed of light!
LOL! Him incompetent? HAHAHAHAHA!!!
I think in light of Congress not being able to pass a significant bill but perhaps one or two…they should just submit a bill to build a physical and virtual fences along the south and north borders FIRST.
Then consider ways to get existing laws enforced.
Why can’t existing laws be enforced?
“Why can’t existing laws be enforced? ”
Lurker, I think at this point the Pro Comp people have made the argument the best we can why the laws cannot be enforced. The lack of worplace verfication. ID, makes a hard case for the Govt to improve
Also in the end the Verfication was the fence. A fence will do precious little for the 40 percent of illegals that came in legally and now are illegal.
However I understand that people will disagree. IN the end there will no more legislation that can get through without meeting the concerns of the immigratn groups and business(both small and BIg). We are in effect at a standoff
Why can’t existing laws be enforced?
Oh, I suspect it has something to do with our entrenched, unelected, undismissible federal bureaucracy.
Biglsufan, you seem to operate under the premise that if this bill was passed, it would be a boon to the GOP. Everything points to the opposite, including the Pew Hispanic Research Center which focuses exclusively on Hispanic studies.
The attitude toward politics among Hispanics is not going to change because we make illegals legal. So that argument, as much as you would like to make it, is false.
Hispanics voted for Bush somewhere around 39% (not the 44% touted by some). Just take a look at the exit polls in his own home state in counties where Hispanics are the majority. He lost, BIG TIME to Kerry.
And one other thing; this argument was not race based. That is another falsehood. “Enforcement first” proponents are not concerned with a person’s ethnic background. We are concerned with the violation of our laws and the disrespect of same. I don’t care if an illegal is German, Latino, Irish or Chinese. I don’t want to reward anyone who has no respect for our laws and feel they have a right to break them. The “race” card was played by those who supported this bill like Teddy Kennedy whose office reported that he was in constant contact with La Raza and LULAC.
The proponents of this bill were taking their talking points from the play book of Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton. Make it about race and we will intimidate others into accepting a badly written, back room deal that was made with racist groups (La Raza means The Race).
I posted a rebuttal to AJ’s original comments above. They have never made it. In it I listed items in the Mexican Constitution that prohibits the rights of immigrants and naturalized citizens of Mexico. Believe me, if the thousands of Americans that live in Mexico started to protest, waving American flags during marches in Mexico City, and demanding rights not given them by the Mexican Constitution, they would be promptly removed from Mexico, all without due process.
We cannot take all the world’s poor. We can help with aid and other programs, but we cannot accept them all. We have to realize that immigration laws were designed to benefit the host nation (us) and not the immigrant.
But if you want to sent a 757 to Darfur and load it up with poor people, who ARE being oppressed by Islamic radicals, and want to bring them here and support them, be my guest.
In 2008 there will be 21 Republican senate seats up for grabs and only 12 Democrat seats.
This is opposed to 2006 when there were 17 Democrat seats up for election and only 15 Republican seats.
Today’s vote has probably ensured a massacre for the Republican party in 2008. We will get a large Democrat majority in Congress and end up with a much worse bill being passed than what was defeated today.
The far right won a battle but they have lost the war. They have now ensured an even worse outcome. Nice going. Sheesh.
Note:
In 2006 Democratic candidates defeated six Republican incumbents: Rick Santorum (Penn.), Mike DeWine (Ohio), Lincoln Chafee (R.I.), Jim Talent (Mo.), Conrad Burns (Mont.), and George Allen (Va.). No Democratic incumbents were defeated.
2008 is going to be a bloodbath. The Republicans will be irrelevant for years to come.
Cheeses K. Rist, Dale
. . . you gotta get ON the meds and STAY on them until the last vestiges of your borderline personality disorder are obliterated.
The hebephrenic babbling was disturbing enough . . . but now you’re starting to worry the neighbors.
Stay inside, close the drapes, sit quietly and wait for the Geodon to start working. There is hope for you . . . if you stay in treatment.
Cross:
Totally insighful comment. Bloodbath, indeed. And you can expect many a sleepless night for the criminals Bush and Cheney . . . as the first task for any Attorney General should be the indictment, prosecution and conviction of the criminals Bush and Cheney for their felonius violations of Title 50, Chapter 1, Subchapter 36, Section 1800 et seq. of the US Code.
BigLsuGuy
“My point is that now the issue will not be picked back up we have got to mitigate the damage as much as we can among hispanic voters.”
Why? why is it a racist or ethnic issue. Can’t illegals be Caucasian?
Why is a hispanic vote to be coveted? Don’t all votes count equally?
Shouldn’t voters vote for whomever they want, regardless of race or ethnicity?
Displaying bigotry in order to claim you are trying to solve the problem is not a virtue.
Crosspatch, I feel you are wrong. Yes, some seats will be up for grabs like Linsey Grahamesty’s seat because his state is already looking for someone to run against him in the primaries.
But the Democrats ran on a ticket of Republican corruption, promising to install the most honest Congress in history and accountablility. The new Congress has achieved none of this and their ratings are the lowest in modern history. In other words, Democrats did not keep their campaign promises and Americans are quite aware of it.
Republicans do not march to the tune of one person’s drummer, i.e. the President. If we do not agree with him, we, unlike Democrats who all use the same talking points, let him know it.
So while I think you are doing an exercise in wishful thinking, I think you will also be disappointed.
I suppose time will tell. I am deeply saddened, though, and I feel that the Republicans have shot themselves severely in the foot. In fact, the wound may fester and result in a severe crippling.
I am not going to argue the point because the polls on the loss of Republican support, particularly in rural America is telling the story on its on. It isn’t a lack of support for Bush, it is for the Republican party across the board. It is really sad. Because of the immigration issue, the Republicans have sacrificed their position and input on ALL issues including terrorism and national defense. We are going to see a Senate and a House where it really won’t matter one iota what the Republicans think, we have just handed the country to the Democrats. Get used to the idea.
CrossP, I hope you’re in your fallout shelter to protect you from your falling sky. Gloom and doom.
Let’s get this straight.
Immigration bill passes, 12+ million x 80% democrat =7.6 million new dem voters and 2.4 million new Repub voters.
a net gain of 5.2 million for the dimmicrats
Immigration bill fails 12+million x 0% = 0 million new dimmicrat voters and
12+million x 0% = 0 million new republican voters
net gain of 0 million for the dimmicrats.
The way I see it, the repubs prevented a 5.2 million gain and they lost? you aren’t too good at math are you?
“Bootlicker”: one would think, that of a normal person, you could come up with another adjective than your tried and true “hebephrenic”?
Sad fact is, you don’t even know what it means, and to find out, you would have to Google it!
Wait a second…..
What’s that sound??
Beeeeeeeeep!
Beeeeeeeeeeep!
Beeeeeeeeeeeeep!
Wow, look at that!
“Bootlicker”, grab your old-style one-bar padded Football Helmet, and put it on, quickly!
The “special” little yellow “short-bus” is outside your home, waiting for you!
Get the helmet on, and grab your sack lunch, you’re off to “play time” with all the other “kids”!
Enjoy; we’ll see you back here in 4 hours, have a good time, don’t knock your head! (That’s why you have the helmet!)
PS: if you stop by Ace Hardware, I’ve heard they have special stretchers there, that can help you straighten your lips out!
FE, I will personally so enjoy telling you “I told you so” a little over a year from now but it won’t make up for the sadness of seeing us hand the country over to the Dems.
It isn’t “gloom and doom” … it is reading the writing on the wall. I think it is atitudes like yours that has destroyed the Republican party. But that is of no consequence now. What is done is done. The Republicans are toast. Find me a poll that shows anything but a diminishing trend of support for the Republican party as a whole. There isn’t one.
Crossp, if you’re going by the polls, it shows that the public is just as fed up, or even more so, with the dimmicrats. In fact, congress ran by dimmis are the lowest rating ever, ever. and that means when the Repubs were in control. So if I were a Dim, I’d be wondering about my future. I lived in SC when Graham was elected with great promise, conservatives loved him. They now refer to him as Former Sen Graham. Because he is not seen as a conservative any longer. They also liked McCain back then, even tho he finished 2nd to W. He wouldn’t do nearly that well now. The conservatives in SC will still elect the next conservative senator.
2008 is going to be a bloodbath. The Republicans will be irrelevant for years to come.
Truth be known, Crosspatch, I think a lot of Republican pols prefer it that way. They were quite comfortable being in the minority from the mid-50’s until 1995 as long as they got invited to to cocktail parties and to play golf on the weekends. If the Dems trip on their d*cks as I fully expect them to, their power trip will surely not last another 40 years. I still think your “Common Sense Party” is the answer, along with term limits.
I’m not quite following how the failure of this particular immigration bill has ruined the Republican party. Is the reasoning that this is the straw that broke the camel’s back or that this one issue has doomed Republicans on its own?
Although we defeated this immigration bill abomination, our President, although he has the power and responsibility to secure our borders, has no desire to do so and will never do so without further pressure from the people. The following copy of my previous correspondence represents my idea to do just that.
6/26/7
Dear President Bush;
I have never been so infuriated at a Republican President, or even a Democrat President for that matter, as I am with you and our Republican Leadership. You are a TRAITOR to your party and country.
I learned this morning that it was you and the Republican Leadership, not Senator Reid, that insisted upon this abortion procedure called the “clay pigeon” that will take away the traditional rights of the loyal opposition to this “Amnesty for all illegal immigrants bill” that you and our Traitorous Republican Leaders negotiated with Senator Kennedy in secret behind closed doors.
I despise you and all of the Republican Party Leadership and any other Republican that supports you in this TREASONOUS DISTRUCTION OF OUR PARTY AND COUNTRY.
I have been a loyal Republican since Goldwater ran for President in 1964.
Mr. President, I AM YOUR BASE BUT I WILL NO LONGER DEFEND OR SUPPORT YOU. I ALSO WANT YOU TO UNDERSTAND PRECISELY WHAT MY INTENTIONS ARE.
When that first terroist/bomb goes off in the USA that is proven to have come into this country across this border that you have refused to secure for the past 6 years I will be with the very first to call for your IMPEACHMENT and your good buddy Ted Kennedy and the other Democrats will be right there with me, along with, our very own corrupt self serving Republican Leadership.
You are the one that has the power and responsibility. Secure the Mexican border or face impeachment when that first bomb goes off. That’s the message I will be broadcasting from now on. I am sick of your love affair with Mexican illegals and your flat refusal to protect our families with secure borders.
Robert Quinn
18 Lakeview Drive S
Haines City, Fla, 33844
863 422 2813
rlqretired@aol.com
There are 15 additional voting members in my family, all Republicans, that feel exactly the same. It is only a fool, or a traitor, that conspires with the enemy against the wishes of the vast majority of his base of support.
Update – 6/28/7 – Mr. President, I want you to know that having helped defeat this abomination that you secretly conspired with the Democrats to create gives me some satisfaction but I also want you to know that my intention remains to support your impeachment if you continue to refuse to secure our border with Mexico. PLEASE SECURE OUR BORDERS, ENFORCE OUR EXISTING LAWS, YOU HAVE THE POWER, PROTECT OUR FAMILIES.
President Bush probably said a prayer for you after reading that, if it ever reached him.
Rlqretired: Well, I get the message you are upset!
I’m not real pleased with what ocurred either; but to call the President of the United States, in any forum, a “traitor”, is uncalled for!
I never called Clinton that, and heaven knows, he desperately tried to give us reason.
I also haven’t called that of any of our elected representatives, Except John Kerry, and former President Carter, and in BOTH cases, it is easily proven.
I don’t think you’ll accomplish much with this approach, by the way.
President Bush, is many different things; but one thing he is NOT, is a “traitor”.
“I think a lot of Republican pols prefer it that way.”
Truth be told, I agree. Whoever wins in 2008 is going to have a crucial slot in history as the party holding power as the boomers are starting to retire. If they attempt to load a national healthcare system onto the back of the people, it might just be the straw that breaks the camel’s back and cause the pendulum to swing the other way in 2012 or 2016. Might might take until after 2012 for the scope of the looming retirement disaster to be fully realized by some. At that point medicare and medicaid are going to be in severe trouble due to the majority of the boomers, the largest population demographic in America, being retired.
But we can kiss the Republicans out of any role large enough to play even a viable opposition for the next 8 to 12 years. The Republicans have become ideologically pure at the expense of being able to do anything about it. Republicans will be able to vote lock step and not make a bit of difference. Nobody is even going to care what their position is on anything for a while thanks to this vote.
Well Hillary is a happy woman.
I know I kind of figured the screeching loons would prevail. After all the leadership crumbled during Dubai and so how they could stand when Hannity and Rush started sweating and drooling over immigration?
The hispanic vote that went for Bush in 2004 at 44% was cut in half by 2006 and now no doubt it will be half of that. Add to that the moderates who are already turning from the party and unless the Republicans can find away to get through the day without alienating, pissing off, insulting, disgusting and or taking for granted an entire demographic then they have hurt themselves badly.
Because they do not have an alternative. They got nothing. They spend half their time bitching about the status quo and the other half protecting it.
They did not fix anything or improve anything. And here they are clinging to Rasmussen polls like life savers in choppy water. See, they say, everyone is just like us.
Fine, if that is true, why are you a minority? If that is true, how are you going to explain to that 73% who think that this problem needs to be addressed that you do not have a clue as to what to do about any of it? That you think just enforcing the laws is a state of mind or something.
Oh, you have your rhetoric, but rhetoric is not a plan.
And what is more you guys probably think months and months more of this bile is a good thing. Rush bellowing into the radio, Malkin prancing in her cheer leader outfit, Tancredo yammering on about how we are “full”….and ofcourse the deliberate intent of destroying the president who had the temerity to stick with his beliefs rather than kiss your asses.
Fine, but this Independent is not liking the Republicans very much right now. The Democrats are at least honest about what they are doing, the same can not be said for the right side of the aisle.
And btw, what will the next Great Sin be? If by some miracle a Republican like Gulliani wins, how long will it take the right to stab him in the back and call him a traitor? My guess is the issue will be abortion and they will be shocked, shocked to find out he is not just like them. And then out will come the long knives. And the name calling and the threats that if he does not do their bidding all is lost. Whatever.
Yep, it is a happy day. Our government has shown it can not deal with a major domestic issue, the Senate has been bullied by screaming ninnies and we are right back where we started. Way to go guys, makes me proud I am not a Republican.
I do feel sorry for Bush however, he deserved better than he got from his socalled cannibalistic base.
yep. he sure does deserve better.
You know when Bush ran for president, he made it clear that he supported guest worker programs and immigration reform. He also made it clear that he supported more private ownership.
Now, when he tried to bring private accounts into social security all those people out there who claim to be fiscal conservatives were not exactly helpful. They like to call Social Security a ponzi scheme, but they did not exactly step forward and defend the president when the Democrats and groups like AARP accused him of trying to destroy the system and leave the elderly on their own.
Nope, they did not step up.
Now we have people hyperventilating, calling the man a traitor for sticking with his principles which he never lied about or hid.
And yet, this problem has been around for years and no one, including the talk show hosts and the people calling anyone who disagrees with them on this issue did a damn thing about it. Nothing. Nada. Zip.
If Gore had won in 2000 instead of Bush, we would still have had illegal immigrants in this country.
But now the hard right has created this monster, they have read the polls and think everyone is as full of hate and malice as they are.
Well Cindy Sheehan thought everyone was like her too.
She was wrong and so are a lot of people on the right.
You got what you wanted, now live with the consequences. Either you will be expected to come up with solutions of your own or the issue will die away and you will be left with the damage you have done. Neither inspires confidence. The best scenario for you will be if most Americans just sort of forget about all this.
But the traitor talk, is not helpful, it sounds bizarre.
And remember, two thirds of the country still support the major elements of the bill, a guest worker program, a path to citizenship and greater enforcement.
Yep, the unions and the smugglers and the drug dealers are happy.
I would not want to run for anything with these people as my “base”. Ever. They are certainly not supporters. They want order takers in government, not leaders.
Just install a laptop in the Oval Office. Everyone can email in their vote daily for whatever decisions are needed for that day.
When that first terroist/bomb goes off in the USA that is proven to have come into this country across this border that you have refused to secure for the past 6 years I will be with the very first to call for your IMPEACHMENT and your good buddy Ted Kennedy and the other Democrats will be right there with me, along with, our very own corrupt self serving Republican Leadership.
OK, let’s look at this scenario.
You are the Operations Officer for what’s left of al-Qaeda.
You are tasked with infiltrating operatives into the United States to conduct terrorist actions. Due to certain operational problems beyond your control, infiltrating in via legal means (student or other visa) directly from an Islamic country is not an option.
There are three basic routes into the United States.
Option 1: infiltrate operatives across the US-Mexican border. Likelihood of each operative getting caught: 10-25% (depending on whose statistics you believe).
Option 2: infiltrate operatives via maritme “over-the-beach” operations. Likelihood of each operative getting caught: less than 2%.
Option #3: infiltrate across US-Canadian border and settle into ethnic Arab Muslim neighboods in Detroit/Dearborn area. Likelihood of getting caught: less than 1%.
Option #4: infiltrate operatives through Canada by posing as a victim of “persecution” seeking “asylum.” Canada will give your operatives generous welfare benefits, a new identity, and fast-track Canadian citizenship. Within six months to a year, your operatives will be able to enter the US on a Canadian passport. Likelihood of each operative getting caught: 0% (legal entry with a passport), but this may cause problems with your operations schedule.
Which option do you choose? If you choose Option 1, why the hell are you choosing the option that has the highest chance of getting caught?
I would not want to run for anything with these people as my “base”. Ever. They are certainly not supporters. They want order takers in government, not leaders.
Damn straight.
Am I the only guy who finds it ironic that “the base” translates into Arabic as “al-Qaeda?”
“Am I the only guy who finds it ironic that “the base” translates into Arabic as “al-Qaeda?””
No, that irony has been brought up before.
I would not want to run for anything with these people as my “base”. Ever. They are certainly not supporters. They want order takers in government, not leaders.
Thirded. ^_^
I just wonder what the next big blowup is going to be about. We’ve still got over eighteen months before President Bush leaves the White House for good.
looks like one of mine made it to the spam bucket but to paraphrase:
“Truth be known, Crosspatch, I think a lot of Republican pols prefer it that way.”
I think as the boomers start to retire the pols are going to be in a world of hurt. If the Dems are swept in, as I believe they now will be, they are going to try to create national healthcare which will be a fiscal disaster as the boomers start to retire. The party leadership will recognize this and try to give the White House to a Republican in 2012 to leave him holding the bag and take the blame for it. The people won’t realize what is going on until 2016 and by then it will be too late.
Crosspatch: no, you’re not the only one who finds Al Q = The Base ironic. I have tried to refrain from using that analogy, but it’s more than tempting. It seems Jihadism is an air-borne virus spread with wagging tongues, wireless connections, and telecommunications airwaves… it takes many forms in many countries cloaked in the theology of many religions. In every form of Jihad there is a domineering, inflexible ideology and a death wish. Have the Cons reached that degree of meglomania? I’m not sure. We shall see by their next moves between now and ‘08 whether they have any ability to examine their own behavior and the fruits thereof. But I am not counting on them changing any faster than the Islamists or the Communist Chinese. Especially with this significant “victory” under their belts. It is bound to inspire more, not less, heavy breathing and muscle flexing.
Pink Flamingo had a great line the other day: If moderation is good for Islam, why not for the GOP and conservatives?
Sorry, I see that it was Cobalt who brought up “The Base.”
It is about extremism to me. Intolerance of anything other than the “correct” way and everyone else be damned. The far right behaves exactly the same way. They don’t care of they are going to walk themselves right into oblivion .. but by golly they are “right” and will never ever compromise because compromise to them is a dirty word that means going back on their principles or something. And when people won’t compromise and respect everyone *elses* principles and work to reach common ground, it simply results in a fight. And this fight will be played out with votes and so they will find themselves voted right out of relevance. And not a single politician will then care about what they call and write or post about because the Republicans are going to have just about zero power. And the only way they are going to ever get that power back is to learn to compromise and take a little and give a little.
Extremism always loses in a free society because nobody likes having what is “right” shoved down their throats by someone who won’t listen to reason and plays “my way or the highway”. Those are the people that end up out on the highway.
We will see.
I just found an interesting TCS column in my mailbox. I’ll paste just the first and last paragraphs:
How the Mexican Immigration Problem Will Solve Itself
As the debate over illegal immigration from Mexico rages in Washington and across the country, and as the administration’s reform bill hangs by a thread, few Americans are aware that this problem will automatically decline and eventually become a vague memory.
[...] The main point for the United States is that we have only a temporary problem with illegal immigration from Mexico. For another decade or a bit more we must attempt to limit such entry, but then the problem will fade like the smile on the Cheshire Cat. Lou Dobbs, Rep. Tancredo and their xenophobic friends can calm down and relax.
See:
http://www.tcsdaily.com/article.aspx?id=062807C
And there’s lots of data out there indicating many natural economic forces at work… none of which ever entered this “debate” because it wasn’t sexy enough or incendiary enough to generate a FoxNews Alert. The factors mentioned in the column, along with other common sense factors & variables indicate that this suicidal brawl was not necessary at all, but part of a small minority’s deeper paranoia and loony agenda. Did I mention that I actually heard Laura Ingraham laying out the “New World Order” conspiracy last week? Yeah, and guess who’s at the nexus of it… it’s a four-letter word that begins with B and ends with H.
President Bush has a lot to do before he leaves office…has to get that SUPER highway built, change the world’s money system to one currency, move the world toward ONE religion and oh yeah…get that North American Union thing going….so many conspiracies, so little time.
“…so many conspiracies, so little time.
Now there you go being a genuine satirist… thanks. Made me laugh out loud.
hahaha
The main point for the United States is that we have only a temporary problem with illegal immigration from Mexico. For another decade or a bit more we must attempt to limit such entry, but then the problem will fade like the smile on the Cheshire Cat. Lou Dobbs, Rep. Tancredo and their xenophobic friends can calm down and relax.
See:
http://www.tcsdaily.com/article.aspx?id=062807C
Now this is a fine article, assuming the facts are all on the up-and-up (e.g., on Mexico’s fertility rate). The bit about Mexicans taking some of our culture back down to Mexico makes sense, too.
Wouldn’t that be a real kick in the head if the death-before-compromise hard right will have turned out to have shot themselves in the foot over a problem that just might be going away in a couple of decades anyway?
I agree with that. Also, many Americans are retiring and moving to Mexico. There is a development boom going on all along the Pacific coast. Many of the people that have a Mexican landscaper are moving to Mexico because the cost of living is too high to retire in California. So the landscapers and roofers and housecleaners are moving back to mexico to service that economy.
Not to mention Mexico’s liberalized abortion laws will begin to trim the population in general. But watch what happens when the boomers retire and 1/3 of our workforce is out of the labor market. We are going to sorely need those immigrants then.
Or else factories and other businesses are going to close. Think about that for a sec … just about every small business owned by a boomer is set to close in the next 10 to 15 years.
So I lift my margarita glass in a toast, “All hail the irrelevant!”
I’m sure the Rich Americans moving to Mexico and taking their Mexican houseboys and gardeners with them as servants is really gonna go over like a lead balloon.
It isn’t seen that way. It is seen as the rich Americans moving down there and creating a demand for jobs so they don’t have to go to America to find work.
http://www.banderasnews.com/0704/re-puntamita.htm
That link was to an article about the area where some friends of mine just bought a really nice place. It cost them about $250K. The house across the street from me is selling for $949K (3br tract ranch home built in the early 1960’s … nothing special).
http://www.banderasnews.com/real-estate/sales/homes.htm
It is currently all the rage for Silicon Valley retirement locations.
Satrist – I certainly hope he did say a prayer for me and someone up there read it for sure.
Dale – The traitor call may be a little strong but the Presidents desire to achieve his goal to give amnesty to 12-20 million illegals by forcing that abomination of a bill through the Senate without a final copy of the bill even being available to those that opposed it and by trying establish that clay pigeon maneuver as a new Senate precedent comes pretty close. The bill itself was a security loophole disaster.
Cobalt – Your scenario assumes al-Qaeda is single headed. It is not. Self-inspired Radical Islamists are worldwide and I believe some of the Fort Dix six were found to have come across the Mexican border. Also, I didn’t say these nuts are particularly smart but they are determined.
Rest assured, if that Mexican bomb does go off, impeachment proceedings will follow shortly. Remember the questions after 911, when did the president first know this was a national security problem??
Rest assured, if that Mexican bomb does go off, impeachment proceedings will follow shortly.
The two groups that eagerly look forward to and pin their political hopes on successful terrorist attacks taking place in this country:
1. Islamist terrorists and their sputniki.
2. “True patriot” conservatives.
Why is that?
Mexico city has not decided to allow abortions in the first trimester so we will begin to see the fertility rate (number of births per person) begin to drop and in 20 years time you should see the population of Mexico growth of Mexico begin to ease. I am not commenting of the morals of that move, simply the impact of it.
Oops, meant “has decided” not “has not decided”