Jun 28 2007
Guess We Need To Dump Some More Hypochondriacs!
I was in meetings all day, but I suspected the vote would not make it based on some early morning indications. I will be looking at the votes but it would seem more far left and far right folks moved to leave us in the same mess we have had for 20+ years. Well, there is only one answer: get rid of the fringes left and right.
The motto for 2008 should be “Stay Out Of The Fringes!”. For me that means I would rather see Webb (D) stay on for a while longer – at least until we can get this immigrartion issue fixed. And of course I will support Warner (R) if he runs in 2008. But if Warner retires all bets are off. The Dems probably will not run a liberal in VA so it will be up to the Republican options to see which way I would vote. But if we ended up with a Mark Warner type vs. an Allen/Sessions type VA would probably be all Democrat at the top of the ticket in 2008. I don’t have time for an analysis of where it makes sense to trim the fringes, but I am sure there are plenty of opportunities out there.
Until then I plan to thank the GOP for every victim of a crime by a repeat offender illegal alien for doing so much to allow these animals to stay in our country. The DO NOTHING NOW! crowd one this round. But each round takes a toll on them and they loose more credibility and support. It is just a matter of time before enough get tossed out before we can try again. Don’t get me wrong, I don’t want a Clinton or Levin or any liberal in office. But the Dems are willing to let moderates into their caucuses more than the frantic right.
Besides, the far right has run its course. They have nothing to offer new and if we need to protect the gains we made we can do that when needed. Yes, we may lose some ground, but that was happening anyway. You need to align with folks who will give you some part of your goals. With the GOP caving on stem cells and other matters their utility is about used up. They are victims of their own success. We have 90% of the stuff proposed by the Contract with America and Bush’s pledges – so take the progress and find opportunities for more. The one open issue is Iraq.
But if Bush’s Surge has done what is needed to stabilize the situation, then that too can be a success fairly immune to Congressional meddling by 2009. That I will watch. If Iraq does stabilize then al bets are off. Might be time to give the Dems another shot. Who knows. But anything is better than NOTHING NOW! – the new and everlasting GOP mantra. This was interesting – can’t wait to do it again.
Cobalt and I have hung out at a number of the same forums.
Terrye, blah, blah, blah. Wow a lifelong dedicated Republican since all the way back to 2000. Wow, that’s a long lifetime. And truly dedicated. If giving amnesty to 12 million illegals is an issue so dear to your heart, I suggest you go back to your true party affilitation, they are the ones that wanted it. The Repubs don’t, so stay with your Dims.
G. W. Bush made you think the Repub party is not just for the rich? did you check his tax returns?
“Believe it or not, treating people like crap does not inspire them to vote for you”
So you’re saying your practices will never win you votes? I’ll agree.
and: “And btw, George Bush and John Kyl and John McCain are all life long Republicans, but that did not keep the screamers on this issue from calling them traitors.”
Show me just one single example of anyone calling either one of those three men a traitor? just one. Remember, it’s your side that’s doing the name calling.
Cobalt and I have hung out at a number of the same forums.
but not this one, you yes, cobalt no.
are you lost? why are you posting here? never seen your name before. Did you intend to post that over at Kos or somewhere less conservative. I think you are just disorientated. Wake up
Yo, FE: I seldom post here, but I have posted elsewhere, and received that sort of treatment.
Like I said, 491 days and change to clean up your mess. GET TO (EXPLETIVE DELETED) WORK!
actually I like Cobalt’s and Terrye’s posts
FOr those that are interested. This is the Hispanic Data for the Country per state. Please look at the under 18 group
http://www.rnha.org/Demographics.htm
On top of this none of the serious contenders for the GOP 08 race are showing up for the Latino elected Officals conference n Florida. Making Hispanic Republicans livid. Most of the Democrats will be having a forum there
Terrye, all I was saying is that the laws are on the books to close the boarder, and we need a tracking system. Congress has oversight to check that these things are being done. Well they need to check it out. Enforce it and part of the problem would be solved with out new legislation.
As for President Bush, I find that on most subjects that are important to me he has been incredibly courageous, honorable, and has a lot of heart. I support him. Look what he said on immigration in 2000. He said what he meant and did what he said. Someone was not listening!
Cobalt Shiva
I agree with you a hundreed percent. I understand that those that won this battle are entitled to a little Victory lap. But it needs to be done quick.
We cannot have a repeat of last year as to Hispanics voting Dem. I intend to write a checj this week to a Hispanic Republican group. THey need all the help they can get
So Cobalt your tactic is to come to a new blog and accuse the people here of saying things about you and then berating them for it when it actually was on another blog. You need to eat more tacks and sharpen up a bit.
I think we might be in danger of lumping everyone who opposed the bill into one homogeneous group of hardliners when there are actually a number of different factions on the right – each with a variety of reasons for opposition:
First there are the people, all name-calling aside, who actually are racists, nationalists, etc. They didn’t like this bill because they don’t like anything that would help someone of another race or nationality. However, while they are out there, I don’t think that they were anywhere near a majority of the opposition.
There are others who opposed this bill primarily because of its comprehensive nature. For this group, any bill which gave significant benefits to illegal aliens without first securing the border merely ensures an increase in illegal immigration. The new influx would add to an already overwhelming problem, and make any attempt at orderly immigration impossible. A large subset of this group probably would have supported this bill if it had called for a fence from the Pacific to the Gulf of Mexico, regardless of what legalization process it contained.
I’ve also observed a number of people who just didn’t believe that many of the bill’s proposals would ever be carried out. A number of people simply did not trust the government to carry out the enforcement sections of the bill – after all, enforcement has not been exemplary thus far, and is much harder and messier than the legalization process (cards are simple compared to locating and punishing criminals, which will most likely result in outraged cries of racism). For this group, the current bill would create a situation much like the current one, only that suddenly undocumented workers become documented.
Finally, there were actually a number of the hardliners who believed that they could do better than this bill, and supported that contention with specific ideas (sadly, it doesn’t look like many of these individuals are senators). These ideas ranged from splitting up the bill into more manageable parts (some obvious overlap with the second and third groups), taking the ease out of getting a Z visa (basically, stiffer penalties for become legal), stricter enforcement measures against those who elected not to get z visas (including deportation, fines, etc), and a variety of other concepts (many of which were in the amendments before the Senate). For this group(s), the common thread was that the Senate bill was incomplete or deficient in some significant way, and its passage would not only be less than optimal, but would also result in a worse situation than already exists.
Most of the people who’ve explained their opposition to me did not come off as racists or evil right wing hypochondriacs. Most did not name call or simply have emotion based arguments. Of course you can always find people who call Bush a traitor, or try to shout down opposition, insult your intelligence, etc, but I don’t think it’s fair to lump them in with those who had legitimate disagreements with this bill. For them, this bill at best would just maintain the status quo, and at its worse would lead to a much more difficult and problematic situation.
If I’ve misrepresented anyone’s views here, let me know, just felt like this needed some clarification.
Well. Judging by this thread, the death-before-amnesty crowd has come forward and offered their contribution to solving the illegal immigration problem:
Snark, slogans, and apocalyptic visions.
No suggestions on how to streamline the wall-building process. No suggestions on finding and removing the bottlenecks in the law-enforcement process. Nothing specific, beyond complaints about a dead bill.
Nice going, guys. The country is with you, I’m sure. Damn, what would we do without you?
Heh.
Oh yeah: Nice victory, guys. You’ve managed to progress all the way to where you started when the alarm bells went off in May 2006.
Cobalt in case you forgot, you said
“Besides, you folks have referred to me as a “traitor†and a “Quisling†too many times for me to bother working with you on anything. If you don’t like that,”
Approx how many times, on this blog, have you been referred to as a traitor or quisling?
Do you have a screw loose? Are you a fruitcake, or just a fruit?
Very well done LONE.
Terrye, all I was saying is that the laws are on the books to close the boarder, and we need a tracking system.
2,100 miles of border to “close.” And that’s assuming that you confine yourself to only the US-Mexican border.
OK, here goes for a very favorable-to-the-“close-the-border” crowd manpower estimate:
10 persons on post per mile of border. This allows for an up-front picket (a very thin one) plus a reaction force to stop large incursions. 21,000 persons on post at any one time.
Now, add 15% to allow for onsite supervision. That is 21,000 x 1.15 = 24,150 persons on post at any one time.
Now, to allow for weekends off, vacations, illness, requirements to testify in court (they ARE law enforcement officers, after all), and other mandatory absences, multiply that figure by 5. 24,150 x 5 = 120,750.
Now take the base number of personnel on post and multiply it by 4 to reflect administrative and logistical support requirements. 24,150 x 4 = 96,600.
Total: 120,750 + 96,600 = 217,350 personnel.
That’s bigger than the United States Marine Corps was in the Cold War.
Next problem: where are you going to get all these people? The Federal government has a maximum manpower cap that it cannot legally exceed. Assuming that BP/ICE reaches 18,000 as it’s supposed to by 2009, that means that you need to come up with 199,350 additional personnel. Now, you can try to strip it from other functions (such as the military), or you can try to increase the federal manpower cap by 199,350.
Now, here’s the next problem: the requirements for BP/ICE are pretty stringent. Are there 199,350 US citizens looking for a law enforcement who are physically, mentally, and morally qualified for the job, as well as having the required skillsets (criminal justice degree or other law enforcement background, linguistic requirements, etc.), and who are willing to work in some of the worst work conditions (climate and terrain) available?
And all of this is just to secure the US-Mexican border, even with a fence, sensors, and other passive/active barrier systems to slow down illegal aliens to assist. Meanwhile, the illegal aliens and their smugglers will shift to maritime routes, and the Coast Guard–already severely overworked–will have yet another insoluble problem to deal with.
blah blah balh right back at ya enforcement.
You have made it plain that you will not support any bill that is not 100% what you want. You will not compromise, you will not give the other side the benefit of the doubt etc blah blah blah.
It helps to win elections if you want to run things. Thus far you guys sorta suck at that. In fact keep it up and you will be completely irrelevant.
So go ahead, hold your breath til your face turns blue unless and until you get the bill of your dreams…but if the Democrats are in control of the Congress, you will have to count on the cooperation of Pelosi and Reid to even git it up for a vote.
So Cobalt your tactic is to come to a new blog and accuse the people here of saying things about you and then berating them for it when it actually was on another blog. You need to eat more tacks and sharpen up a bit.
It’s of a piece with your schtick, FE. (I’ve been lurking a while.) Meanwhile, you’re wasting valuable time pretending that you don’t have a problem. 491 days isn’t much time at all.
Approx how many times, on this blog, have you been referred to as a traitor or quisling?
About the same number of times I’ve called you a xenophobic, hate-filled sheethead–but I’m willing to acknowledge that (a) yes, you’ve been called that (if not here, then elsewhere) and (b) no, it does not add any value to the conversation.
So shall we dispense with the BS, or are you bound and (expletive deleted) determined to pretend that your side of the aisle does not have (a) a very serious problem and (b) only 491 days to clean it up?
Cobalt Shiva
are you lost? why are you posting here? never seen your name before.
The rhetoric sure does cause some deja vu, eh?
It helps to win elections if you want to run things.
That bears repeating.
Cobalt Shiva
Those are some pretty impressive numbers as to what we would have to have on the border. Of course that does nothing for the 40 percent that overstay their visas.
Well I guess we can put that military expansion on hold that all those generals want.
Verfication was the fence. I wonder tonight what discussions are going on in Boardrooms, Chamber of Commerce types etc about 08