Jun 29 2007
Remember When All We Had To Do Was Enforce The Laws?
Like all good PR campaigns that are meant to create a mob-mentality approach, the sound bite is employed to make a complex issue seem so simple – even a caveman could do it. The truth is, sound bites are usually misleading or out and out lies. Seems we have been lied to – we can’t just enforce the laws – according to Malkin and others who said that was all we had to do:
The Executive Office for Immigration Review — a federal agency made up of the U.S. Immigration Court system and its appellate body, the Board of Immigration Appeals — is the centerpiece of a largely unknown permanent amnesty for illegal aliens and criminal alien residents within the U.S. Department of Justice.
With the complicity of the Department of Justice and the Department of Homeland Security, the EOIR litigation bureaucracy forms the hidden piece of the puzzle of institutionalized mass immigration in the federal government.
Deportation of foreign nationals in the United States is largely voluntary.
The lengthy EOIR system of hearings and appeals enables illegal aliens and criminal alien residents to remain in the United States both legally and illegally.
EOIR and the INS enable the vast majority of detained aliens facing deportation to be released back to the streets on an immigration bond or paroled out of federal custody during the EOIR hearing process, giving every non-detained illegal alien and criminal alien the option of disappearing back into the United States regardless of the outcome of their Immigration Court hearings.
…
Michelle Malkin agrees that the EOIR and BIA bureaucracy should be abolished — Book Review of “INVASION”
Yep folks, as I tried to warn everyone – we cannot simply enforce the laws. We need to rewrite them. Which was what the Bill would START to do. Again, thanks to Michelle and others we now are stuck with possibly a million illegal alien, convicted criminals on our streets for the foreseeable future. What a victory!
I forgot to add: It must be part of that diabolical Democrat plan to destroy the GOP that made these people mislead everyone – right? Credibility is fundamental in politics. A lot of loose cannons just shot the hell out of the GOP’s credibility and got us – NOTHING!
Update: Folks, I strongly suggest you read the comments. The hypochondriacs are now changing their stories. They knew all along existing laws would not work. Now one claims it was lack of paperwork to congress which drove him to stop the progress and another now says it was never going to work. But the best comment is from reader Crosspatch, who notes that this IS the legal process on the books. THEREFORE, any immigrant who is in this process IS LEGAL!
Yeah, been trying to tell people for a long time that there really is no law to enforce. There is no penalty for being here against regulations UNLESS you have already been deported and come back again by clandestine means. THEN it is a crime. But a person remaining here on a legitimate visa (about 50% of “illegals”) faces no penalty other then *possible* deportation and that usually hinges on them waiving their hearing process. If they go through the hearing process, it can take years to be deported or they might simply be allowed to stay, particularly if they have children who are US citizens.
Legal process makes them legal. And since this is an unending process they can be here indefinitely. Ladies and Gentlemen – it was all a sham! The far right lied to you. We cannot do ANYTHING by simply enforcing the laws. It was a PR slogan. As I noted this was WELL KNOWN by the Amnesty Hypochondriacs. It is not silent amnesty to have torpedoed this bill. It was LEGAL AMNESTY! As long as this legal process is not overhauled – then these people are here LEGALLY if they follow the current process. Shamnesty? Someone’s glass house just shattered.
53 Responses to “Remember When All We Had To Do Was Enforce The Laws?”
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Them heavy clouds are hell, ain’t they?
Consider this, talking about how it is now:
“Deportation of foreign nationals in the United States is largely voluntary.”
Under the new law, it would have been non-existent.
and of course this: As it is now:
“The lengthy EOIR system of hearings and appeals enables illegal aliens and criminal alien residents to remain in the United States both legally and illegally.
While the new bill made them all legal, so they would only now stay legally.
A wolf in sheeps clothes, is still a wolf.
AJ
Regardless how you cut it we had 40 years of neglect.
The neglect was not just lack of enforcement of the laws on the books, but the greater lack was shear lack of oversight by governments on both sides of the aisle. There is plenty of blame to go around that would justify a bipartisan fix.
Instead today we have committees chasing phantom issues about firings in the Justice Department instead of in depth review of the real faults in the government makeup.
After the last amnesty it didn’t take long to observe it wasn’t working and the trends were there for all to see who chose to look.
So now it is time to pay the piper.
Merlin,
This is not neglect. This is a broken legal process – as Michelle CLAIMED herself.
LOL!
FE finally admits he was lying when he said all we had to do is enforce the laws!
Too funny. And his little fantasy about provisional status while the process works (you know, innocent until proven guilty (or in this case proven a felon)) is pure fiction. But we know have FE admitting enforcing the laws won’t work and he just didn’t think anything would work so he wanted the status quo. Stunning bit of ‘logic’ there.
AJ
It was neglect, oversight would have revealed the legal process was broken and needed to be fixed.
It could have been mended much earlier and never have grown to this proportion.
We went 40 years and all of a sudden everyone had a “come to Jesus” moment.
I for one don’t buy it.
Simply proper oversight would have discovered the problems and an early fix could have been crafted.
In fact thats what some suggested here related to the current bill.
Some said pass it with it’s faults and correct it later.
Well the exact same logic applied back then, however the oversight and the corrections were never done.
If anyone had taken the time to read the bill that just got shot down you would clearly see the only guidance issue in the whole bill was the triggers of dubious worth to enable portions of the bill.
There was absolutely zero provisions for down range reviews of the effectiveness of the bill effects.
No required two three or five year review, not a single effectiveness report to congress.
It was just set it and forget it.
All in all the same pattern of all the Kennedy originated bills.
All a lame smokescreen Merlin. And the results of your efforts?
There is absolutely zero provisions for down range reviews of the effectiveness of the bill effects. (few laws have these or need these, and they could have been added. Congress can review any time they want – see a law requiring Congress to get reports on status in Iraq?)
Nothing will be reviewed for two three or five years, not a single effectiveness report to congress.
Your result was as good as their solution – minus all the positive stuff that WAS in the bill. Nice job folks. Take a bow for NOTHING!
LOL! I don’t expect the hypochondriacs to see how ridiculous this all was and is. They didn’t see it coming and they will hold their blinders firm to avoid seeing what it left. Denial plain and simple.
Yeah, been trying to tell people for a long time that there really is no law to enforce. There is no penalty for being here against regulations UNLESS you have already been deported and come back again by clandestine means. THEN it is a crime. But a person remaining here on a legitimate visa (about 50% of “illegals”) faces no penalty other then *possible* deportation and that usually hinges on them waiving their hearing process. If they go through the hearing process, it can take years to be deported or they might simply be allowed to stay, particularly if they have children who are US citizens.
It is one reason why I have a problem with “illegal” because it really isn’t “illegal” unless you have been kicked out and came back.
The only report required was a unique new annual report of the number of deaths on the border.
No reports required of fence construction progress only a final certification.
No summary reports of border crashers caught, how many deported, how effective the added lawyer and personnel enhancements did.
It was simply a flying blind bill.
Only if someone chose to get the GAO and the CRS to do a study would anything be revealed.
This bill had no feedback loop in it of any consequence.
CP,
Notice how the hypochondriacs are now changing their tune! Now FE claims it was never about just enforcing the laws, it was all the ‘illegal’ immigrants (which you point out correctly are not ‘illegal’ since they are here per the legal process) becoming legal! And Merlin is now looking over at the lack of reporting as his reason. Yeah, the BS got so deep it stunk up the whole place.
People are talking about the GOP losing beaucops more votes to the Hispanic bloc but they miss the larger point.
There will ultimately be a “hard right” third party which will have to deal with the invasion. It might take another generation but by then
Pat Buchanan will look like a moderate conservative on the issue.
BFD Merlin. That is your latest lame excuse for doing nothing? Not enough paperwork back to Congress? The opponents cannot even defend their own victory! There is NOTHING now Merlin – thanks!
Take a bow. There were your marginal issues AND all the rest of the holes still there! Nothing is not better than something with some holes to fill in.
But you do admit we cannot simply enforce the laws because, as CP notes, these people ARE NOT HERE ILLEGALLY!! If they are in this endless LEGAL process then, guess what? They are following the law! And guess what, they can stay indefinitely!
LOL! The irony of this is just too stunning. The far right was all full of BS and empty claims.
AJ
Keep calling me any name you wish, I have a very thick skin.
I keep presenting issue you seem unable to dispute, except by extreme hand waving.
Yes Michelle pointed out the laws were broken.
Well guess what they didn’t break yesterday.
They were broken from the beginning, but we still managed to deport people in a lot of cases.
Catch and release was a problem. Do you think that just started yesterday?
Those are facts, no matter how hard you try, you can’t just wave your hands and make them go away.
AJ
I was opposed to the bill in its form and pointed out things that needed to be fixed.
I proposed in one of the threads to pass the individual bills which are already on the Senate floor to address the broken issues.
The comprehensive product was non workable in it’s form and that is part of the reason why it was defeated.
So tell me just what have you suggested besides passing another badly formed bill to make the situation work?
There are bills on the floor addressing specific issue in fact over 50 of them according to Thomas Legislative database.
Fixes can be done.
The only thing that is required is the will to do so.
What name did I call you other than “Merlin”?
I could have said something like ‘the paperwork protector’, or maybe provided you a slogan like “paperwork before progress!”.
The hangover from this has not yet even set in for the GOP. Not by a longshot.
Like I said early on, if we are going to battle over this then every zero sum result will be at a price to the GOP until they realize it is too politically damaging to stand in the way anymore.
What, don’t tell me you thought this issue was dead? LOL! Hell no. We have a little over a year to remind voters EVERY DAY what the GOP did and how they lied to America that all we had to do was enforce the laws.
And when the political pain becomes too much, and the hypochondriacs cry ‘uncle’ we will have the reform we need. I said this was going to come at a price Merlin. And for those of us who are dead serious about the importance of this bill to our national security there is no time to worry about bruised egos and damaged political parties.
I was quite clear as to my motivations. It still is national security. And right now the biggest obstacle is the GOP – not the dems.
Making it up as you go along.
At no time or place have I said:
I defy ANYONE to link to my stating the above.
The Losers were on the Losing side, the winners were on the winning side. Simple as that
You said
LOL! I don’t expect the hypochondriacs to see how ridiculous this all was and is. They didn’t see it coming and they will hold their blinders firm to avoid seeing what it left. Denial plain and simple.
Left by AJStrata on June 29th, 2007
It may not have been directly applied to me, but the reading of your response post could go either way.
Either way AJ, I am only trying to impartially point out the faults all along with the bill and few others could even without major generalization give good reasons to support the bill.
Right now the best thing congress and specifically the Senate can do is to take some of those individual bills I talked about and bring forward the ones that address the most eggregious problems that have been identified during this debate.
Single issue approaches can do a lot to fix the holes we all know exist and will not generate the ire this has done.
In fact since those bills in reality exist out there and the opportunity exists to enact them, if they choose to ignore that is only pile on shame to them.
I have to admit, FE. Your reactionary drivel is becoming quite comical. I can’t help but at least chuckle when I read your comments. Perhaps you are the reason for my pathological need to laugh. HA HA HA.
The opposition to this bill seemed to rest solely on the guest worker program (i.e., z-visas). They mislabeled this as mere amnesty and responded with enforcement first mantras.
What can we do about it now? Just vote in the next election I guess and unfortunately live with the consequences of not being able to control the hissyfitters.
CrossP,
Yeah, been trying to tell people for a long time that there really is no law to enforce. There is no penalty for being here against regulations UNLESS you have already been deported and come back again by clandestine means. THEN it is a crime.
Seems, as usual, you missed the point, along with AJ as he posted your manifesto of ignorance as an update.
It’s not the crime of coming illegally that we are talking about. It’s all the other crimes. You saying all criminals are entitled because they are here and should go thru the process. I say if you were a criminal before you came here, you’re not entitled to any legal status here. Too bad you couldn’t understand something so simple.
Merlin,
Stop dreaming. There is no second bill coming. I warned the far right this would happen. I doubt it will be even picked up on 2009 – especially if it is a GOP President. If a Dem wins the GOP will have to filibuster a Dem package because it will be real amnesty.
Dude, the hypochondriacs screwed the pooch royally on this. You want to be one of them? Fine. But don’t insult my intelligence or anyone elses. There is NO WAY to do anything under current law. And there is no new bill coming for 2-10 years.
I, unlike the hypochondriacs, was not exaggerating. Wake up man. There is NOTHING coming.
LOL! The hypochondriacs still believe the magic ‘current laws’ tooth fairy exist! How quaint. FE, I posted an actual case where convicted murderers were being allowed to stay in the country.
Get clue – you folks screwed up. The current laws won’t work and no one is going to touch this subject again for years.
Welcome to your nightmare.
Laughing Boy, wake up and get the sky off your head.
AJ
I don’t know if there is or isn’t.
I am just suggesting a way to do some fixes rather than leaving it a totally dead issue. I think that is constructive.
I am not insulting your intelligence, I am just presenting an opinion of something that can be done and would help. That is a far cry from kill the bill and just shut up.
You may very well be right that nothing else is coming, part of that is political reality of the moment, but since realistic alternatives exist to do some correction rather than nothing then the original motives of those who presented this bill can be brought into question.
Do you think Bush has anymore “political capital” to spend on immigration reform. According to David Frum, Bush may not even have “political capital” to continue the GWOT.
Furthermore, hissyfitting republicans have no effect on their counterparts in the opposition party. Do you honestly think that individual components of this bill will pass the Congress? It wont work that way. Both sides exhibited strong feeling against this bill. Thats why this issue was so heated. The catch is that repubs disagreed on certain parts of the bill while dems disagreed on totally different parts. HENCE THE NEED FOR A COMPROMISE TO GET IMMIGRATION REFORM MOVING.
Bush made this compromise possible because of his views on immigration. He was willing to meet in the middle (with a slant towards the right, in my opinion) but hissyfitters wanted all or nothing. Well they got it. Great…now what do we do….hissyfit because Bush didnt get anything done? Its not his fault. Its the hissyfitters who throw a tantrum because they can’t have it all.
LOL! The hypochondriacs still believe the magic ‘current laws’ tooth fairy exist!
Actually, the amnesty pimps that thought the bill had a magic bullet are delusional
Magic bullet=Arlen Spector, now it makes sense.
Unfortunately, we had to rely on Harry Reid run the Senate. Which is a definite disadvantage.
And Ted Kennedy…UGH!!!!!
Furthermore, hissyfitting republicans have no effect on their counterparts in the opposition party. Do you honestly think that individual components of this bill will pass the Congress? It wont work that way. Both sides exhibited strong feeling against this bill. Thats why this issue was so heated. The catch is that repubs disagreed on certain parts of the bill while dems disagreed on totally different parts. HENCE THE NEED FOR A COMPROMISE TO GET IMMIGRATION REFORM MOVING.
Reader you notice you talked about hissyfitting republicans and Both sides exibited
Gee trying to have it both ways are you?
Yes individual bills can go through committee to be vetted and fix specific problems.
In fact there are a lot of Senators who right now have a real vested interest to make it happen to mend fences and not just on the border.
Aj in the end the forces of FAIR, NUMBERS USA, and other Tanton groups won. I fear them more than any wacko hispanic fringe group.
I would feel a lot better about yeaterdays defeat if the opposition to this bill has divorced themselves from those extremist. However we have people that made common cause with the Council of Conservative citizens and others int he pursuit of their radical goals. That is what is truly frightening. THe debate has shifted more from “I am just against illegal immigration” to the FAIR stance of bring immigration to a practical stop in this country. In the end that is the real danger. At some point those groups have to be dealt with. Till then the misinformation will continue
Oh, and I can’t resist…
quote:
“Laughing Boy, wake up and get the sky off your head.
Left by For Enforcement on June 29th, 2007″
endquote:
Hey FE….I thought you were above calling names. HA HA HA.
Merlin,
It is over. Anyone moaning that fact who opposed the bill is simply in denial as to what they did.
Sorry – but everyone ELSE knew it was the last shot for years to come. Maybe you folks should have included that in your calculations (like the rest of us did).
Laughing is an action, laughing boy. the only name I called you is boy, you’d have to convince me that’s not accurate.
So Merlin,
I guess you are saying there are no hissyfitters on the left side of the aisle? Am I correct in this?
Yeah and those committees (made up of members from both parties) are going to magically shed their partisanship to come up with a bill that satisfies hissyfitters on both sides of the aisle. They will do this even though a comprehensive bill that represented compromises for each individual component packaged together failed.
If you think this is possible, more power to you.
AJ
You seem to keep lumping me in to the just kill the damn bill camp which is totally false.
I was hoping the bill could be fixed and was only trying to be totally impartial in pointing out issues with the bill that needed to be fixed.
When Reid pulled is maneuvers to cluster bomb amendments to the bill, I knew it was dead.
I was doing my best to play it down the middle and am even now offering specific suggestions of ways to continue on.
Which I must say is more than the opponents or the supports of the bill we had are doing.
In case someone missed it:
The losers were on the losing side, the winners were on the winning side.
No Reader, I was pointing out that hissyfitters was a term applied here specifically applied to those pointing out issues with the bill.
Many on this thread whether intended or not seemed to address their ire in that direction and gave scarce attention to all other opposition or even in good faith questioning of the bill.
I hear ya, Merlin.
No, my hissyfitting was relegated to those who harped on one or two pet issues with the bill and called for its death. All those “enforcement first” mantra-spouting individuals as well as those who think I was referring to them (HA HA HA). (reference quote of the day above). Of course we want enforcement……the bill had enforcement components. But alone, these components wouldn’t fly.
I tend to look at the big picture. I did not agree with all parts of the bill, but still, to me, it was a good first step that could lead to a better future. It had a lot of what President Bush espoused to during his campaigns and with which I agreed.
HA HA HA, you forgot to add that.
True that, FE.
HA HA HA.
The process, as I understand it works something like this: in this scenario I am selecting a person who is working in a job, has a taxpayer id number (majority of “illegals”), has never been in trouble with the police and has a place to live.
They are caught in an immigration raid and given a summons to appear before a magistrate or a judge. This is something similar to a “ticket”. During this time, the government can look into a person’s background and see if they are any kind of a threat to the community such as a criminal history, connections to terrorism, etc. When they make the initial appearance, if they are deemed to be a potential threat to the community, they can be remanded to custody pending a later hearing. If they are not a threat and are still working or have dependents who are US citizens, they are given a court date and released. The length of time that passes till that court date can vary according to the work load in the district where the proceedings are taking place but can be up to a year in the future or more in busier districts. In other words *simply* being here on an expired visa or having walked across the border and taken a job is *not* grounds for automatic deportation / incarceration *unless* they waive their hearing process which they are encouraged to do by immigration agents. Immigration groups are working to further clog this process by encouraging them *not* to waive their hearing process causing an even greater backlog of cases in the courts that hear them.
Once these people have their hearing they could be allowed to stay or they could be subject to deportation. If found to be subject to deportation, they can appeal. If they lose the appeal, depending on their country of origin and particulars about them, they can then try for asylum or refugee status. So a Palestinian or Iraqi Christian or an Iranian Jew (Iran used to have the largest Jewish population in the Middle East outside of Israel until recently) might qualify as for asylum or refugee status.
Note that “catch and release” doesn’t really apply to these people. That is mainly for people that are caught in the process of crossing he border or migrants with no fixed address who are in transit to jobs. In the past, those people were also given a summons and released but rarely ever appeared because they were on their way to a different region of the country and have no fixed address in order to locate them. THOSE people are now taken into custody and if they do not waive their hearing process are kept in custody until their hearing. As they have no permanent job, no fixed address and likely no US citizen dependents, they are most often deported and most often waive the appeals process to avoid being held for a long time in custody.
Now, once someone is deported and they are AGAIN caught in this country without approval, they can be jailed as a criminal and again deported.
There is a difference in the process for people who simply drift around the country looking for available work as opposed to someone who has settled, has taken a permanent job, has kept out of trouble, started a family, and is a part of the community. That is, I believe, as it should be. People like that are an asset to our country and should be allowed to stay. The migrants should be given work permits that allow them to go home when the work is done (winter) and come back when there is more to do (spring). And those who have already been deported once should be incarcerated if they are found here again without having the proper documentation.
“Enforcing the law” means allowing these people their day in court, taking each one on a case by case basis, and giving them all due process. It does “not” mean simply rounding people up and shipping them off simply because someone doesn’t like them or something.
From CQ, go there to read it all. Seems as he has perception.
Winston Churchill once remarked that God takes care of drunks and the United States of America and so it seems to be as we approach the end of a remarkable week in which milestones of success for the conservative movement have come one after another.
how did he say that again? ” milestones of success for the conservative movement”
sounds as if he has it feet on the floor and hands on the wheel.
CrossP, and the point is? I don’t see the difference in your two scenarios, assuming no law other than entering the US illegally is in play. Whether they have a permanent job or not.
Fake ID, fake SS no. Stolen ID, all those are separate crimes from entering illegally and should be dealt with. All of them should be deportable crimes. But I have no problem with them pursuing the legal process, at THEIR expense
Had the new bill passed, all this would have been moot, they would all have gotten legal status permanently and that would have been that.
So, again, the point? Who ever said to not pursue a constitutional process? Just because the LOSERS claim the WINNERS advocated it doesn’t make it true. Sore Losers.
There *is* no such law! There is NO law against entering the US unless you have already been ejected and come back. THAT is what you have having trouble understanding.
There ‘is’ a law against entering the US illegally, and it’s a civil offense, so no matter how long and hard you shout, you’re not going to change that fact. If you read what I said above, I acknowledged that above. You were so convinced you were gonna say I was wrong, you didn’t even read it. Go back and read what I said.
When I talked about pursuing a legal path, I was talking about the other crimes, which I listed. But it should be at their expense. Not the US taxpayers. And that is what you are having trouble understanding.
In case you don’t know it, you are not entitled to legal representation at taxpayers expense in civil cases
FE:
Should we now address you as NFEA (not for enforcement alone)?)
Be nice now.
boy, I really know how to bring a thread to a halt don’t I???
Satrist
FE Should we now address you as NFEA (not for enforcement alone)?)
If you can show me I’ve ever said I was for enforcement only, I’ll concede to that, but I’ve certainly never said I was or was not for enforcement only
my name comes from the subject of illegal aliens and means what it says For Enforcement (of existing laws) It has no other meaning and I never put the word ‘only’ on my name. So should we now address you as “Satrist the Clueless” ?
Talking about bringing a thread to a halt.
good grief. one would think that since you got what you wanted yesterday, you would be a little less nasty today. What would you be like if you had lost?????
What would you be like if you had lost?????
It wasn’t life or death to me, I would have been just as nice.
See Satrist, you made the mistake of reading and believing what AJ said about me as in:
“FE finally admits he was lying when he said all we had to do is enforce the laws!”
As I clearly pointed out, AJ was making that up. He was unable to provide a link to any place where I had said anything even remotely like that. and I was just pointing out, basically that you had missed that little clue. Actually I have no problems with you and apologize if I was a little too insensitive. Keep writing.
I didn’t miss “that little clue” at all. I was just teasing you.
Apology accepted and I apologize as well. Have a good day.