Jun 29 2007
GOP As Popular As Amnesty Bill
Updates Below
Think America wants the GOP shoved down their throats any more than the immigration bill? Apprently it is a worthwhile question now that they are as popular as the immigration bill:
FOX News/Opinion Dynamics Poll. June 26-27, 2007. N=900 registered voters nationwide. MoE ± 3. LV = likely voters. Except where noted, results below are among registered voters.
“Do you approve or disapprove of the job Republicans in Congress are doing?
6/26-27/07
Approve : 30
Disapprove: 56
Unsure: 14
LOL! There’s a success. The GOP destroyed itself by making it as popular as the Bill it defeated. Combine that news with the fact the GOP lost ground over the last month to the Dems in the generic ballot question, going from a 7 point to a 12 point deficit, and one thing is becoming clear: the GOP is not very popular right now. About as popular as ‘amnesty’.
Update: Some GOP’ers are in the bliss of ignorance, saying not to worry! Whistling past the grave? Who knows. CNN has the GOP down 12 points too: 53-41. Two polls, same dismal result. And look at the Presidential head-to-heads. Earlier this year the GOP always led. Now the Dems have a slight edge across the board. Nothing here folks. Just ignore it!! About as truthful as ‘enforce the laws’!
Major Update: Well, the polls are already showing the damage is done and growing with hispanics – a group the GOP needs some support from it they have any hope of winning any non-House races:
According to poll of 502 Hispanics in the field from June 2 through 24, President Bush’s approval rating among this population is 29 percent — low, but not significantly lower than the 32 percent showing Bush puts up among all Americans in Gallup polling. However, when we move from topline results on down to some more internals from the poll, the problems for the Republicans become more clear.
The Gallup survey indicates that 42 percent of Hispanics self-identify as Democrats while a mere 11 percent self-identify as Republican; 39 percent self-identify as Independent. When Independents were asked towards which party, if either, they lean, the Democrats’ numbers go up to 58 percent among Hispanics while the Republicans’ climb to just 20 percent — a remarkable spread. When polling one potential head-to-head contest, that between the Republican Rudy Giuliani and the Democrat Hillary Clinton (who by far garners the greatest support among Hispanics in a Democratic primary, though that could be a facet of her significantly higher name recognition), Clinton leads 66 percent to 27 percent — a far greater margin than the 50 percent to 45 percent spread by which she leads Giuliani among all Americans.
There is a way to fix this. The amnesty hypochondriacs will never face up to it. As long as there is no immigration bill – basically as it is now – then there is no way to demonstrate good faith with these VOTERS (not illegal immigrants). And even if the far right did all of a sudden realize the damage they did and tried to correct it, why would Harry Reid let them?
190 Responses to “GOP As Popular As Amnesty Bill”
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Ahh I am sure the needed results will come. Just like they did with the Dubai Terminal Lease deal, The Nuclear Option, and the Hardline Enforcement House bill that Tancredo and King helped give us last year.
I am still excited about the dividends that gave us last year. Well at least the Democrats do thinks like “no confidence” votes etc so at least it evens out
Oh, my God, American voters are flocking to the Democrats in record numbers. Stay off the streets or you might be trampled. But wait………………
Democrats only have a 36% approval rating (according the same poll) but I am sure giving that information was just an oversight on AJ’s part.
AJ, get some cold beer this weekend, bar-b-que a nice steak and chill out. You are showing signs of obsession.
Retire05:
That puts us down by 6.
Rasmussen has us down 12.
Where is the support? It’s not showing up.
I am going to try to use these various translation tools that on the net and take a look at US spanish media. I am almost afraid too look. I often suspect that we are missing a great deal of what is being said that we should be paying atttention too. I will report back if there appears to be a wave of GOP support there after yesterdays events
Harold, did you go into cardiac arrest when the Democrats were tanking in the approval ratings and flair you hands in the air proclaiming “the two party system is over. The Democrats are going to disappear”?
http://www.politicalarithmetik.blogspot.com
It shows the trend for the last 15 years (maybe longer).
http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0607/4712.html
Great!!!….Just what we need, an equivalent hissyfitters organization for the radical conservatives.
Hopefully the radicals will self-destruct soon. Then we can get about the business of true progress for the Republican agenda.
Well so far they have got me rethinking my support, now that they have turned on their own.
And where is their bill? I mean they are such experts, they have all the answers. I guess we will have to wait for the talk radio people and the pundits and the toe the right line bloggers to tell them what to do next.
Just think, if they had come out in 2004 and called Bush a traitor and rolled their eyes and screeched and screamed and said that the party’s immigration plan was a horrid abomination from which America will never ever recover, John Kerry might be president today.
Oh well, I bet they do a better job next time. I am sure Hillary is counting on it.
You see the problem that these folks just do not seem to understand as of yet, is that they just savaged their own party. They should be look at those ratings and slap themselves on the back, after all that is what they wanted isn’t it?
I mean if I had a dollar for everytime I have read or heard some Republican xenophobe demand the head of some member of their own party in the last couple of years I could retire right now.
Terrye,
Reminds me of the anti-war lefties like Cindy Sheehan turning on their own liberal poiliticians.
The extremes on both sides of the issues are putting up the most noise. It is our responsibility to stay even keel. They will eventually destroy themselves. Of this, I have faith.
hehe…Hey AJ you lost….get over yourself. Focus on what you know about. Stay away from stuff you only have an opinion on and that opinion is based on hearsay. When you do that you are brilliant.
Though I suspect that you are fanning these flames because far from costing you hits the controversy is bringing them in. You go girl.
Aj, they will look at those numbers via the hispanics and just use them as an excuse to further alienate hispanics. After all, why show people who do not vote for you common courtesy? If they can’t use them, screw them.
However, these numbers are down considerably from what they have been in the past. And it could make a difference in states like Florida. Republicans have been making steady gains with hispanics, in the last two years people like Tancredo have completely wiped them out. And what have they gained? Nothing.
Way to go.
Pierre:
So far the biggest loser is the Republican Party. thanks to people like you.
However, these numbers are down considerably from what they have been in the past. And it could make a difference in states like Florida.
Somebody please show me a plausible scenario for victory in 2008 if Florida goes Democrat.
OK, let me see if I get this right; a poll, taken between June 2-24, 2007 shows Hispanics have a 29% approval rating of Bush (when he is pushing amnesty), not much lower (when it should be higher) than the rest of the nation and that 42% of Hispanics self-identify as Democrats.
Now, according to AJ, we are believe that a poll, taken at a time when there was a good chance the immigration bill would pass and Republicans like Kyl, Graham and McCain were pushing for amnesty, reflects how Hispanics are fleeing in great numbers from the Republican Party? But we are to ignore the Pew Hispanic Research Center’s survey last year that said that 49% of Hispanics self-identify as Democrats? So it seems that in less than a year, Hispanics have dumped the Democrats by 7%.
Nothing like using old (6/2-24) data to prove current trends.
And the dance of the AJ Dervish’s continues.
“Somebody please show me a plausible scenario for victory in 2008 if Florida goes Democrat”
Cobalt, The the common wisdom I am hearing is that Fred Thompson will be loved by all and we shall have a electoral landslide. That seems to be the answer to everything I hear as to 08.
Florida is very troubling. Again I am very miffed that done of the frontrunners are that very important meeting in Orlando. Talk about puttting our Florida Hispanic Republicans leaders in a embarrassing position.
I suppose if a Romny gets it he might be able to pick up states in the Northeast and maybe Michigan to offset a Florida loss. Perhaps Guillani can work wonders. But losing Florida would hurt that is for sure
Pierre,
I lost nothing. The immigration bill doesn’t impact me one way or the other. I was trying to help the GOP avoid losing.
Look at all my posts – they were pleads not to do this. Guess what – the status quo is nothing. You folks didn’t gain anything. How can you ‘win’ when you end up with a goose egg in the results column?
You know how little I care the GOP understands what is happening? Zilch. They are the walking dead for a few years. I am not moving to look at dems because I think they are better – they will have the power to make things happen.
I am an Independent. I am glad I did not join up with the Reps. That is for sure! So in that sense I did win. I avoided a huge mistake. The GOP avoided progress and grasped political suicide. Sure, call that a win….
LOL! Too funny.
The fact that AJ didn’t post the trend for Dims says more about him than it does the trend. Then he couldn’t make the point that he tried to make but flunked out at. The Dim trend is just as far down as the Repubs, and the Pres. is EVEN lower. If AJ’s point was right, Pres Bush and the Dims would be up and Repubs down. But we have all 3 down, that means NOBODY liked what the Pres and the Congress did. AJ, you should take a statistical analysis course. And snap a few pictures while at it.
You have bought into the MSM, which as we all know are favorable to the Repubs ……no, wait. Dims, yea that’s right, Dims. I don’t see any mass stampede away from anyone. All politics is local. If I were in SC still, I would vote for a different conservative than (formerly conservative)Lindsay Graham, not for a Lib.
I am a conservative and have been for at least 47 years and expect to be for at least 20 more. I supported Pres Bush at all times, except on giving amnesty to illegals and if he were running again, I would vote for him again. Nothing,under any circumstances, could be worse than the Dim puppet being manipulated by Soros. And you’re only getting 2 choices, a conservative and a lib. Take your stand.
If you want to make a point, you have to present all the numbers, otherwise you are just propagandizing.
Show us that polls that show that the Repubs EVER had the hispanics. they have always supported Dimicrats so any polls showing the Repubs are losing them, need to show where they are losing them from. I don’t believe anyone on this blog can show me where the hispanics have been repub. Them damn pieces of the sky falling yesterday has done a lot of damage.
Hey, just saw this:
“I was trying to help the GOP avoid losing.”
HOT OFF THE PRESS, YOU WERE SUCCESSFUL, WE WON.
Don’t know why you were trying to aid the enemy, but it worked, so thanks for what you were able to accomplish.
The last time I looked the vote was 53- 46 and it was definitely the GOP on the WINNING side. quit buying into the formerly MSM hysterics.
“I don’t believe anyone on this blog can show me where the hispanics have been repub. Them damn pieces of the sky falling yesterday has done a lot of damage. ”
What about Florida where we have high registrations. Also what the polls that show the hispanic vote viewing themselves as being more independent just like everyone else
The goose egg was on the Dim side
the proposition\\
Defeat Amesty for all
the score
Dims 0 GOP 1
I’ll take that 1 all day long.
Show us that polls that show that the Repubs EVER had the hispanics.
Bush got 44% of the Hispanic vote in 2004. That’s a high-water mark. Since then, we’ve gone downhill.
they have always supported Dimicrats so any polls showing the Repubs are losing them, need to show where they are losing them from.
We’re way down from the 2004 levels. Now, maybe we can win after four years of telling Hispanics that they’ve been told, over and over by your allies, such charming bits as:
“We don’t want spanish speaking little retards befouling our great country.”
“Most latinos are thieves and are corrupt”
But I’d rather not find out.
HOT OFF THE PRESS, YOU WERE SUCCESSFUL, WE WON.
Pyrrhus “won,” too.
Big Lsu
“What about Florida where we have high registrations.”
What about Florida? give us the numbers that show that the Hispanics were predominately Repub?
Cobalt,
Reagan got 50%. Don’t bother with R05. If the GOP doesn’t get more than 50% he could care less. He uses that new fangled math were everything from 0-49 = o. It is clear to see, with ‘logic’ like that, why the GOP got into this mess. They lost 6 senate races in 2006. I hate to think they could equal or beat that in 2008, but they are defending more seats than the dems.
We know FE,
you are really proud of the pile of crap you folks laid…
Got it.
Ouch more bad news
Latino immigrants in South Florida who have traditionally registered with the GOP have felt alienated by the party, critics say.
http://www.miamiherald.com/news/breaking_dade/story/154256.html
Adios, Republican stronghold – Both parties are courting the swing voters of the state’s fastest-growing ethnic group. – Florida
http://www.sptimes.com/2007/06/28/State/Adios__Republican_str.shtml
U.S. Citizenship applications soar in South Florida and throughout the country
http://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/local/southflorida/sfl-flbcitizenship0624nbjun24,0,2682694.story?coll=sfla-news-sfla
As local Hispanic Summit nears, poll shows split on immigration – Orlando
http://www.orlandosentinel.com/orl-hispoll1707jun17,0,5029849.story?track=rss
FE,
I am going to break my own rule. You are a blithering idiot. What kind of fool does it take to twist someone’s words around and pretend it means something else that what the person intended?
You think you won something? And you think I was rooting for you?
Damn, no wonder you are a Hannity fan. Between the two of you, you might come up with a double digit IQ.
Pulleeeasse stop pretending we are on the same side. You fail my minimal standards tests for allies and your posts keep knocking you farther down the scale. Right now you and KOS are about tied for the worst in class.
I’ll take that 1 all day long.
Enjoy it while it lasts, s***-for-brains.
News from the future:
“June 21st, 2009: All illegal aliens in the United States as of this date have been granted amnesty and a fast track to citizenship–within one year for those who have been in ths country for at least five years–under a law signed by President Clinton today. The law, estimated to affect approximately 16 to 23 million persons, was passed overwhelmingly in the House and Senate and signed immediately. Republicans attempted to filibuster the bill, but a party-line 63-37 cloture vote ended debate. Attempts to add additional border security provisions were also defeated . . . “
I don’t understand why people can’t see the trends that Hispanics are voting just like “white folks”. That is they sometimes vote Dem and sometimes vote Republican. I mean isnt the fact that more hispanics view themselfs as independent show that?
Damn, no wonder you are a Hannity fan. Between the two of you, you might come up with a double digit IQ.
Sean Vanity’s brains are all in his hair. He’s as bad as John Edwards in that department.
Is it just me, or is anyone else picturing these bill supporters standing over the sink in their fuzzy slippers and bathrobes with mussed up hair finishing off a bowl of cheerios and scotch?
More making it up as you go along?
Show me again where I said I was a Hannity Fan?
“Damn, no wonder you are a Hannity fan”
“Pulleeeasse stop pretending we are on the same side.”
Did you say you were trying to help keep us from losing? I just pointed out that you succeeded. How is that ‘twisting’ your words?
“I am going to break my own rule. You are a blithering idiot.”
What rule did you break? You’ve called everyone on this blog, with a few exceptions, names. how is that different?. Just one more name in the many you’ve used so liberally the last few weeks.
So, I will just point out that you are a fine upstanding example of the “quote” independents (another name for those that can’t make up their minds without putting their finger up to see which way the wind is blowing).
And I won’t take the opportunity of joining your name calling brigade. Think about that.
Actually, in lots of cases, showing the truth about someone is much more effective than calling them a name. would you agree?
Republicans lost six seats last election. Clear proof that the sky is falling and the GOP is on it’s last legs. Only problem with AJ’s doom and gloom senario is that historically, that is not a big switch.
http://www.senate.gov/pagelayout/history/one_item_and_teasers/partydiv.htm
The Senate races in ‘08 will be a tsunami of Republicans getting washed out of office and out to sea . . . of the seats up for election in 2008, 21 are held by Republicans and 12 by Democrats. A special election will also be held for Wyoming’s Class I Senate seat, currently held by John Barrasso, who was appointed by Governor Dave Freudenthal after the death of Craig L. Thomas.
If ‘06 was any indicator – and its gotten a lot WORSE since then . . . the Dems may wind up with a filibuster proof majority . . . so the health of SCOTUS should come to the forefront. With control of the White House and the Senate . . . the hideous deformation Bush has wreaked on the visage of Justice may actually be fixed in a surprisingly short time.
Is it just me, or is anyone else picturing these bill supporters standing over the sink in their fuzzy slippers and bathrobes with mussed up hair finishing off a bowl of cheerios and scotch?
Is it just me, or is anyone else picturing the bill opponents picking up their robes from the cleaners and purchasing some Jack Daniels for the celebratory cross-burning?
By the way mr photo memory, my IQ was tested to be north of 140, I have no idea what yours is, and don’t care to. And just for the record, I was invited by MENSA to join, but declined. I think they require slightly more than a double digit to qualify.
AJ, I’m getting damned tired of these racist remarks, here is one from just above by BigLsu,
“I don’t understand why people can’t see the trends that Hispanics are voting just like “white folks”.”
I pointed out one earlier by Reader, are you just ignoring them because they are in you apple polishing, name calling brigade?
Soothie, the apple polishing line forms at the rear, quit trying to break in.
By the way mr photo memory, my IQ was tested to be north of 140, I have no idea what yours is, and don’t care to.
Nice to know you can’t read a map, either.
Hopefully, things will turn around.
Perhaps, it’s time for new blood?
I think anything goes in ‘08 at this point. Drudge Report said today that more than half of the American population will NOT vote for Hillary. Yet, the odds of her winning the primaries are good.
“I don’t understand why people can’t see the trends that Hispanics are voting just like “white folks”.”
There is nothing racist at all in that. As I have pointed out the goals of assimilation is that people start voting pursuant to their various experences they have. First what is white? That in itself is a fluid term.
THe point I am trying to make is that hispanics are not following the trends(we hope it continues) of a voting bloc that is similar to Native born African Americans. That is why it is sort of silly to go OH NO WE DIDNT GET 50.1 percent of the hispanic vote we are losing them.
For instance Irish, Italians , Catholics used to vote Democrat in some places. In other areas Republican. Are we not seeing that in Florida to some extent where Cubans are no longer going to be Republicans forever because of history. Do we not see that Repblicans are doing quite well in Puerto Rican areas now where a decade ago we did not see that? It is the maturity of an ethnic group. For instance no one talks about the Irish and Italian vote anymore do they?
So yes one day and its accelerating because of the modern economy and spread of information talking about who got the hispanics is likely to be as likely as who got the Italian vote today
That will change though if the GOP does not divorce itself from over the top comments
talk about “girly men” with their panties in a bunch! this is great entertainment with all these hobgoblins and sky is falling shrieks.
but as i said yesterday, with all the support you voiced for securing the border as part of the bill, the visa bill from 1996 and the fence act–all 700 miles of it, await your strong support. these are all funded and on the books. why not turn all your teeth knashing into something constructive.
i’m not holding my breath. i think most of you are open border freaks with a couple of “liberation theology” church types thrown in for flavor.
prediction: the repub party will do just fine, however i had already stated that hillary would get 90% of the black, hispanic and jewish vote–over 20% of the electorate– making her run for the white house very possible. she just needs 30 % of the remainder.
i’m not holding my breath. i think most of you are open border freaks with a couple of “liberation theology” church types thrown in for flavor.
I think you’re a sheethead, so we’re probably even.
prediction: the repub party will do just fine
Just like they did in 1986, 1992, and 2006 after these internal bloodlettings because the same group–the “my way or no way” populist fringe–thinks that the GOP is their personal toy.
“i’m not holding my breath. i think most of you are open border freaks with a couple of “liberation theology” church types thrown in for flavor.”
First I can show you material from the far left and the Liberatarian bent that is for “open borders”. I rarely see anyone that is for the bill an advocate of open borders. In fact most people on the left that have a “open borders” view opposed the bill.
Second, Liberation Theology is hardly evena fad anymore in the United States. It was whimpering along on lifge support in the late 80’s early 90’s. Since Liberation Theology is often associated with the Catholic Church let me clear. The Churches view on immigration policy as so nicely put forth by John Paul the II is not “liberation Theology”
yea, if i made a racist remark, I’d try to show why it isn’t racist also
everyone says “white folks” everyone talks of Hispanics voting in blocks, like the” of a voting bloc that is similar to Native born African Americans.”
So blacks vote like blacks, whites vote like whites and hispanics vote like hispanics,
I said one time if you wanted to keep animals out of your yard you would put up a fence and the host said that was racist and I got a firm warning. but he apparently doesn’t see all your racist comments as racist and Readers ’spade’ comment as racist.
Guess that comes from being an Independent.
FE, “apple polishing, name calling brigade”.
While AJ seems to resent any name calling from far rightwingers that he can find on the internet, he had no problem calling me names or letting Terrye call me a “prick”.
But then, I am not a member of the “brigade”. (slaps forehead)
retire05
Whatever retire. Again there is a view as seeing the latino/hispanic vote as one huge mass that thinks alike. IT never was that. Even business has started to figure that out
Yes there are voting blocs. One reason the African American vote is bloc democrat in reality is because of numerous small mistakes the party made in it history. It did not have to be that way. The reason why Italians and Irish for so long were Dems was that the GOP unoffically ran on wonderful slogans like Rum, Romanism, and Rebellion
No need to repeat bad parts of history if we can help it. Especially as to the “hispanic vote” that is so multifacted that one really has to work hard for it to come together in political anger. Something we are doing right now.
Cobalt, you could only find 3 elections out of the last 11 to use as an example: That sounds like you are following the host’s rules of only pointing out the negative and attempting to ignore the rest.
“Just like they did in 1986, 1992, and 2006″
What about 1988, 1990, 1994, 1996, 1998, 2000, 2002 and 2004? Give us the stats on the Repub losses those years.
That’s called (formerly)MSM statistics. I’m especially waiting to hear how 1994 came out. How many seats was it the Repubs lost that year? was it a significant number, guess not or you would have listed it. Ever hear the word? Nah, I won’t ask.
“One reason the African American vote is bloc democrat in reality is because of numerous small mistakes the party made in it history”
Do the African American’s consider Republicans doing away with slavery one of their numerous small mistakes?
I think it was one of their finer moments.
Biglsufan, if you think the Irish and the Italians of the 19th century would be agreeable with the Democrats of today, you are sadly mistaken. They would not be. Also, there is one hugh difference between the Italian and Irish immigrants of the 1800’s and the Latino immigrants of today; the Irish and Italians were extremely loyal and patriotic toward the nation they now called home. The immigrants of today, by the sheer numbers that marched in the streets of LA and Dallas last year waving the flags of their native lands, are not. Also, the previous wave of immigrants wanted no more than the opportunity to work. They did not demand free social services or voting rights.
The immigrants of today have little in common with the immigrants of the 1800’s. But you will never admit that.
“First I can show you material from the far left and the Liberatarian bent that is for “open borders”.”
I hardly ever see anyone claim to be for ‘open borders’ but I fail to see how having a welcoming brigade at the border with food and water and directions to the nearest “make me legal instantly” center can be construed as anything other than ‘open border’
But then being dishonest about true intentions mean little to the amnesty now, amnesty forever crowd.
“What about 1988, 1990, 1994, 1996, 1998, 2000, 2002 and 2004? Give us the stats on the Repub losses those years.
I picked those three elections because they cost us the most. 1992, in particular, gave us 8 years of the Clintons, which we are still paying a grievous price for.
BTW, in 1994, 2002, and 2004, the GOP wingnut brigade understood that they were meant to be seen and not heard. By 2006, they forgot that little rule.
In 1996, 1998, and 2000, they were heard–thankfully less than usual in 2000–and we gradually bled seats. Jim Jeffords would not have been able to flip the Senate in 2001 without 1996 and 1998.
But then being dishonest about true intentions mean little to the amnesty now, amnesty forever crowd.
And, of course, being dishonest about YOUR true intentions means little to you and the rest of the kill-brown-skinned-folks crowd.
What’s wrong, FE, feeling slandered? Tough shit. I’m just repaying you in your own coin.
retire05
It might shock you but the Italians and Irish marched in the streets too. There were protest and yes things were not always pretty. The same old tired complaints and myths about this new wave of immigration was said back then too. The biggest mass lynching in the South was in New Orleans and it involved Italian immigrants. Complaints about how they were not assimilating , not speaking English fuel a mob mentality that went out of control when citizens decide to become vigilattes.
Not everyone waved a Mexican flag and many that did have it as a cultural reference point. NO different than in past immigration waves. I suspect many of them had relatives serving in the military and in IRaq. In fact the first person killed in Iraq was a Marine that came here as a illegal alien. So I would be very careful about talking about people’s patriotism.
Patrick,
Why would I not be for the border enhancements on the books? Do you see me calling for their repeal? Do I need to note EVERYTHING that is going on that I like? We are talking about what’s next, not what’s done.
YEs Enforcement the Abolition of Slavery was one of many fine points for the GOP. There were several others I might add that I try to constanty point out. But liitle things such as Republican reaction or let me say inaction to the horrors that blacks went through during the great Mississippi River flood along with other small things added up.
We need to be careful of perception
R05,
I do not read all the coments. I did not see the ‘prick’ comment. Stop whining. No one is forcing you to post here.
“demonstrate good faith”??? I guess giving away the keys to the kingdom would be a good start? I just can’t understand why any one would want to put into action such a terrible idea? What if we passed a law that allowed criminals to be free if they escaped from prison and submitted an application for a special Zpardon? It really makes no sense, lets just pass a law to pass a law, no matter how bad it is? I think the underlying rational for this law is to get more money in to keep social security solvent for a little longer. No one wanted to fix SS, change it over to a personal account like 401K, so why not pull in more tax payers (legalize illegals, and tax them). At least until the generations that deserves SS are gone, and a newer one that may believe in letting the free market do the work of building their retirement packages. It’s a kick the can band aid to hopefully fix two things but obviously failing at both. Every one who wants this to pass think about Castro cleaning out his prisons and shipping them to Florida.
The only sense of satisfaction which will be of no worth to me or my beloved America, is seeing all those who blasted the republican party into smitherines get absolutely NOTHING they want done in ‘08-’16. N-o-t-h-i-n-g. Eight years of nothing but liberal agendas being implemented, ACLU agendas. And a liberal supreme court for another 40 years minimum. Book it.
Unbelievable. But maybe that’s the only position these people can handle: the minority position that can only block legislation, not accomplish anything.
And what is most incredulous to me is that they don’t trust George W. Bush who has kept them, their children, their grandchildren and great-grandchildren safe since 9/11-the toughest job mayber ever in the history of the presidency…given them the best economy in 50 years, lower taxes, and is the only president to TAKE IT DIRECTLY TO THE TERRORISTS.
In essence, this is an indictment on them and not George W. Bush.
‘08 will be a cakewalk for George Soros and Hillary Clinton…”I pledge allegiance to the America that COULD be…” You all got that? *Could* be and will be under her r-u-l-e.
You know its too bad the immigration bill can’t be pressed in the House.
First it would have full hearings so people could not complain about that. BUt what if God forbid it passed. I expectif the Senate Republicans that fought for this bill thought this would really go to a conference committee then the 60 votes could be found . We could rescue ourselves from this situation.
And one more thing…I think, frankly, that these people saw how successful George W. Bush was getting two years ago and they couldn’t allow that for they knew that he would dominate the political scene and they would become less powerful…and shamed by the greatness and generosity of this most decent, bold and courageous man.
You can always trace these things back to a power struggle, imho.
Now the House Democrats are demanding that Bush close down Gitmo by cutting funds….
And without addressing the issue of how to handle the detainees…iow, what to do with them.
Sounds like another immigration bill all over again…quickly put together without putting much thought into it.
Pelosi and Reid have been working on plans to stop this war and pull out.
What happens if they end up with the override veto in September?
Will the Republicans finally capitulate to the Democrats?
More racist remarks, this by Cobalt:
And, of course, being dishonest about YOUR true intentions means little to you and the rest of the kill-brown-skinned-folks crowd. What’s wrong, FE, feeling slandered? Tough shit. I’m just repaying you in your own coin.
Tell me where I slandered you and where I mention any colored skin color. Are you just a completely dishonest person, or just don’t know the difference?
I strongly suspect you’re just in the clueless class.
I also want to note that you have only shown up and started making your racists statements since AJ’s liberal bent has shown up on this illegal alien issue. I suspect if he goes back to being Independent(another word for those that can’t make up their minds until they get their fingers in the air) Your backside will be out of here, because the Independent leaning (at times) AJ doesn’t put up with racism. or at least he used to say he doesn’t.
You know, voters traditionally have very short memories. The next national election is still 17 months away, which is eons to the voting public. An approval poll today means absolutely nothing to the elections of Nov, 2008. By Holloween, this bill will be forgotten, and we will move on to another legislative crisis. This may be the reason for the timing of such a contentious issue now. Basically kill it early, and make it a distant memory by election time. I’ll lay odds that there will be a lot more pressing issues to deal with by next summer.
Cobalt
So in addition to being either clueless, dishonest or both, you don’t recall history very well either
understood that they were meant to be seen and not heard.
Ever heard of the Contract with America. No. well, clue for you, it was in there somewhere, I’ll let you figure out when.
Republican reaction or let me say inaction to the horrors that blacks went through during the great Mississippi River flood
what great Mississippi River Flood?
THe Great Mississippi Flood of 1927
And Bill Clinton won MORE votes in ‘96 than he did in ‘92 after Newt allowed republicans to be seen as mean, nasty ones who shut down the government….What exactly are Newt Gingrich’s positive numbers or should I say negative numbers, pray tell?
L-O-W.
And for the record, Rasmussen has the President’s numbers at now 35%-2 points down from 5.06.07.
And Bill Clinton won MORE votes in ‘96
Some example, an incumbent Dimmicrat that got less than 50% of the vote, wow, got any more excellent examples?
Ivehadit, George Bush has been a stawart on the war against radical Islam. He gets it (as in those who are against us and all of western civilization) and remains one of the few who does. That is George Bush’s legacy. His dogged determination to kill the enemy on their turf, not ours. His John Kennedy view of tax cuts and the benefits they give have been spot on. But because Republicans respect him on these aspects of his presidency, doesn’t mean that we are sheeple to be lead or that we have to agree with everything he tries to do.
The prescription drug plan is a hugh boondoggle that has cost billions more than we were told. He never saw a pork project that he was willing to veto and in fact, used the veto pen a lot less than he should have.
What no one wants to admit here is that the Democrats, i.e. Reid, never intended to pass this immigration bill. The defeat accomplished three things; black eye to Bush, portraying Republicans as racists and security in the Hispanic vote that Democrats have always had.
Republican reaction or let me say inaction to the horrors that blacks went through during the great Mississippi River Flood of 1927.
So as I understand your statement here, you’re saying Republicans were running politics in Miss, Ark and La in the 1927 time frame. Well, guess I’ll have to review my history, I would’ve guessed Dims were in control of those states back then. When did they actually go from the Repub party to Dims? after that flood? Then that would mean Huey Long was a Repub? right?
BigLsu Guy…have you ever had any history courses?
I thought we were done talking about conspiracy theories. Why do political hacks like Retire05 have to keep bringing them up?
Give me a break on the ulterior motives of the Democrats on immigration reform. So youre saying that Bush is stupid for falling for this trick because lord knows he doesn’t care about Republicans getting elected in the next election. And Reid and Kennedy are so brilliant for making Bush and the Republicans look like a bunch of jacka##es. Of course, they not only gave Bush a blackeye…they also made the radical hissyfitting conservatives reveal their true colors and drive the Hispanic vote to the Democrat column….(hmmm…perhaps you want to rethink your ridiculous conspiracy theory now?)
Quit your hissyfitting Retire05….remember the immigration bill failed….your side “won”.
“I thought we were done talking about conspiracy theories.”
Reader(laughing boy) if you can’t keep up with the subject, that’s your problem. I haven’t seen any agreement to quit talking about conspiracy theories. In fact about 99% of what I’ve seen on this blog is theory, conspiracy or otherwise. Very little facts from the side that wanted the bill passed, only theories as to why it should be.
“Very little facts from the side that wanted the bill passed, only theories as to why it should be.
Left by For Enforcement on June 29th, 2007″
I guess this is your theory.
HA HA HA.
You have become my comic relief for this board FE. HA HA HA.
Take that as a compliment or as an insult. I leave it you.
You crack me up with your ineptitude.
Is it just me, or is anyone else picturing the bill opponents picking up their robes from the cleaners and purchasing some Jack Daniels for the celebratory cross-burning?
Left by Cobalt Shiva on June 29th, 2007
It’s just you. You came in the door cutting and pasting the freepers which few if any here identify with and now you are insulting people and generally just behaving badly.
Sad to watch.
I take it for what it’s worth, zero
which is worth a heck of a lot more than you. Take that as an insult, that’s how it’s intended.
At least I haven’t resorted to racism, as you did.
That that as superiority, that’s how it’s intended.
HA HA HA. Its amazing that almost everyone of your posts makes me at least chuckle. HA HA HA.
Merlin, and making blatantly racist remarks above, as I pointed out.
I personally think he’s a fruitcake, but I don’t call names so I won’t say he is one.
Ha Ha Ha, that comes from your relatives and ancestors, Ha Ha Ha.
“I personally think he’s a fruitcake, but I don’t call names so I won’t say he is one.
Left by For Enforcement on June 29th, 2007″
Holy Shiza……..Now tell me that this comment was not funny.
ROFLMAO HA HA HA
Reader2007, if you tell me where you live I will try to find a community college for you in your area. Most colleges offer reading comprehension courses as well as critical thinking courses. Those would benefit you greatly. That is unless you have a cognitive disorder, in which case, you are doomed.
Well I have to leave the computer for a little. Take it easy, FE.
HA HA HA. COMIC RELIEF
I think you’re the product of Laughing , er, uh , uh, people. yea, that’s it.
R05, he’s doomed.
“So as I understand your statement here, you’re saying Republicans were running politics in Miss, Ark and La in the 1927 time frame. Well, guess I’ll have to review my history, I would’ve guessed Dims were in control of those states back then. When did they actually go from the Repub party to Dims? after that flood? Then that would mean Huey Long was a Repub? right?
BigLsu Guy…have you ever had any history courses? ”
History is a lot more complicated than the myth that arises from it.
In 1927 the most destructive flood in US hisptry happened in United States History. That Flood had a lot of political effects that were for the large part unseen. I would highly recommend the highly acclaimed book RISING TIDE by John Barry that goes into all this.
THe Flood had one effect of eleceting Herbert Hoover President because of his actions. IT also has the effect of the Republican party pretty much losing the Black vote forever. What basically happened was when the river broke blacks were put in deplorable consitions. Local govt aided by business fearful of balck migrating North were holding black hostage at gunpoint. Some on levees that could burst. They did not evacuate the black population because they were agraid they would not come back. Well the deplorable consitions of the 330,000 blacks and the camps they were in got out. Black America was outraged. President Hoover promised to make reforms and he did not. HE broke his promises and I guess the GOP thought black support was that big of a deal I suppose.
Result, African American leaders shifted the black population to the Franklin Roosevelt. IT was that and not the NEW DEAL that made that shift.
The other result was the great migration of millions of Southern blacks up North and because of Hoovers Fumbling they became loyal Democrats ever since
Things matter and certain events in history have major consequences
Oh well I don’t know where all the stuff I wrote went on the Great Flood and how that shifted Blacks alliance s fro the Republican Party to the Democrat Party. Needless to say to give it a short recap. Hoovers fumbling and broken promises so aggravted the Black community that the black leadership delivered the black vote to Franklin Roosevelt and thus the Democrats forever. See the book Rising Tide by JOun Barry that goes into detail about this
Here is a short Wilki article that briefly hits on what John Barry writes about in his book as to the flood
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Mississippi_Flood_of_1927
[quote]You know, voters traditionally have very short memories. The next national election is still 17 months away, which is eons to the voting public. An approval poll today means absolutely nothing to the elections of Nov, 2008. By Holloween, this bill will be forgotten, and we will move on to another legislative crisis. This may be the reason for the timing of such a contentious issue now. Basically kill it early, and make it a distant memory by election time. I’ll lay odds that there will be a lot more pressing issues to deal with by next summer.[/quote]
This is what I’m thinking will happen. So for Bush, the best thing to do is not do a repeat of something like this again. But the Democrats are going to be attacking Bush and build a story of the Bush corruption. With those two subponeas served against the WH and Cheney, that’s the goal of the Democrats.
I went over to the Corner Blog at NRO. They are still giving out the Tony awards for the saviors of the Republic over defeat of the bill. All is fine and in NRO land it appears there is no blowback at all from defeating the immigration bill. Laura Ingram of course is being lauded. There is no talk about possible bad feelings that have arisen and the need to repair relationships.
All is just FAB.
Jonah Goldberg ,God Bless his Soul, I think sees the need to talk about something else.
BigLsuGuy, I’m gonna have to ask one more time; have you ever read any history? Hoover wasn’t elected Pres until over two years after the Flood began. Silent Cal was the man. Is any other part of your story based on reality or ‘just the way you remember it’? The flood started in summer of 26, continued into spring of 27. Election was nov 28 and Hoover became Pres in 29, so once again, what did Hoover have to do with it?
“Hoovers fumbling and broken promises so aggravted the Black community”
Of course the Repubs were running the state gov’s at that time also, right? Huey Long, and others. You don’t think the state officials had any hand in how the flood was handled. Was it Fed guys that were forcing blacks at gunpoint to slave labor, or was it local and state people. I really think you ought to do just a few minutes of research before you blame something on someone that didn’t even take office until 2 years after the fact. And you’re from where?
FE,
biglsufan= big Louisiana State University Fan
Louisiana, home to the Long boys, Kathleen Blanc[o] and William Jefferson.
Any questions?
BigLsuGuy, just for the fun of it. Let’s re-write history to fit your scenario. In 1926, due to very heavy rains in the midwest, the Mississippi river started flooding. The flooding reached epic proportions by the Spring of 1927. Herbert Hoover, Secretary of Commerce was in charge of Flood relief for the Coolidge Administration and did such an outstanding job, that he was elected President in the Fall of 1928. Right after he was had assumed office, the corruption amongst the money changers in New York due to greed and speculation in the stock market caused the infamous stock market crash of 29. Widespread fallout from the market tumble caused widespread job losses all over the country, resulting in the election of Dimmicrat FDR to the presidency in 1932 His inept actions resulted in the deep depression, which resulted in him starting and continuing to this day, the largest socialism experiment and program the country has ever had. Widespread welfare in the form of Social Security. Despite all his efforts of taking from the rich and giving to the poor (an attempt at pure communism) he was unable to pull the country out of the depression. As a result of the opportunity to enter into a World War, employment quickly rose after Dec 7, 1941 and the depression started to go away.
No, wait…. did we get that right, Was Hoover really elected as a result of his good handling of the great Flood or was it just because he was a sly devil and was able to fool a lot of people. Did the stock market play any role in the election of FDR or was it really only the inept handling of the great flood 6 years before. most likely it was the flood that was still on peoples minds, they probably weren’t voting with their pocketbooks from the massive unemployment due to the market crash. Surely the SS system has and will be a great success, the War didn’t have anything to do with the economic revival in the ’40s, that was all FDR brilliant leadership.
BigLsuGuy, you need any ocean front property in Ariz, by any chance?
“biglsufan= big Louisiana State University Fan
Louisiana, home to the Long boys, Kathleen Blanc[o] and William Jefferson.
Any questions? ”
ALso home currently Bobby Jindal rising star of the Republican Party and future Governor of Louisiana. Also Home to A republican Majority Louisiana Congressional Delegation
Retire05, just for the record, I live in Louisiana and have 2 grandsons in LSU and one going to Law school there this fall. I’m just pulling Big Guys chain because he doesn’t seem to really know a darn thing about Louisiana.
I like your writing O5, keep it up. A voice of knowledge and reason.
I lived on the Bank of the Mississippi for 20 years and know a lot about it’s history. BigLsuGuy doesn’t seem to.
I wrote you a nice comment about the flood, maybe it’ll show up, seems to be hung up in the filter.
Enforcement:
“BigLsuGuy, I’m gonna have to ask one more time; have you ever read any history? Hoover wasn’t elected Pres until over two years after the Flood began. Silent Cal was the man. Is any other part of your story based on reality or ‘just the way you remember it’? The flood started in summer of 26, continued into spring of 27. Election was nov 28 and Hoover became Pres in 29, so once again, what did Hoover have to do with it?”
Hoover was the Secretary of Commerce during that time. He was the front man on those recovery efforts. His actions largely got him the the Republican Nomination . Again it is a part of American history that people are generally ignorant about
“Of course the Repubs were running the state gov’s at that time also, right? Huey Long, and others. You don’t think the state officials had any hand in how the flood was handled. Was it Fed guys that were forcing blacks at gunpoint to slave labor, or was it local and state people. I really think you ought to do just a few minutes of research before you blame something on someone that didn’t even take office until 2 years after the fact. And you’re from where? ”
First much of what occured in the state of Mississippi. Louisiana had its own share of troubles. I will not even get into New Orleans and what happen to the poor people in Chalmette For your information Huey LOng was not Governor at that time. I believe he was Public Service Commisioner but he was a not a huge force at that time
It was not Fed Guys forcing people at gunpoint. It was largely local and state folks. THe problems was that the Fed did not intervene and Hoover managed to keep the media out of the worse camps and from all that was going on. He promised a lot of reforms to the black community after the Flood because of all that happened. Well he let that slip. Again this is history.
Enforcement I really don’t really just makes things up. My Gosh it all in a Book that got a a ton of National rewards. Go check out “Rising Tide” out of you local library. I am sure it is there.
Lsu
Both the flood of 27 and Katrina had a common thread, warning was available and people stayed in areas of high risk.
In Katrina some people drowned like rats in their attic for crying out loud. They didn’t even think of kicking out the louver vents at the ends of the attics for ventilation to escape the attic.
I know of a couple of examples friends told me about of neighbors ripping out their free standing bathtub and tying it to the bumper of their car with 20 feet of rope so it wouldn’t float away and using it like a life boat. Another neighbor dumped the contents of his refrigerator and removed the door and used it like a boat to put his family in after tying it to his truck bumper.
They used plastic trash bags tied together to make water wings for the kids as emergency flotation.
Sure they got rained on and got wet, but the next day the tub paddled over to the fridge to stay together and that afternoon some rescue boaters came by and picked them up and took them to safety.
” I’m just pulling Big Guys chain because he doesn’t seem to really know a darn thing about Louisiana.”:
Sigh lol
I am well versed in Louisiana. I have lived here all my life and from from stock that came from the Louisiana Delta on the River and from people from the Nortwestern part. Plus I have been involved in local and state wide politcs forever. So yes I have a clue about Lousiana. Much more than the clueless media portrayals we see on TV
FE, don’t forget David Vitter, a rising star in the GOP. I am thinking it will take a cajun to really drain the swamp in D.C. Jindal is the next governor of Louisiana. It is time that the most corrupt state in the union sees the light of day. I guess the funniest thing in all of the Katrina disaster was Jindal (I think it was Jindal) saying “half my state’s under water and the other half’s under indictment”.
BTW, FE, 1927 was the little flood. 1993 was the big one. The water was three blocks from the state capital building in Jefferson City, Missouri. And my old neighborhood in St. Louis was underwater for the first time in it’s 120 year history. When the government build the levees in Missouri, Mark Twain said at the time that the old man river would take back what they had stolen. In ‘93, the river retook all the land that has been lost and self-diverted to the old river run.
When I was a kid, I lived in St. Louis and used to go to the area that is now the Arch and the Jefferson Expansion Memorial and watch the barges and boats that ran up and down the river. I have seen Budweiser haul beer on wagons across the river when it was frozen over.
Some memories just cannot be replaced.
Thanks for the complement, FE. They are soooo rare at this place. But, I have learned through the years, it is hard to argue with rational thinking and cold, hard fact. And those who don’t possess those things, resort to tactics that expose them as simply unequipped to substantiat their arguments.
Now that should get me slammed.
Oh in both cases above that had 4 or 5 days supply of snacks and can goods to at least eat stuff that didn’t have to be cooked and several jugs of water for drinking to get by on.
At worst case when the storm passed they were about 2 miles as the crow flies from I-10 and they could have paddled to there and gotten to high dry ground.
“FE, don’t forget David Vitter, a rising star in the GOP”.
I voted and worked for David but I wonder how much of a rising star he really is. He does seem to have GRAND ambitions that I am not sure he can meet. However who knows maybe he has got a deal worked out with Guillani.
Biglsufan, if you have been involved in La. politicas “forever”, then you know that corruption rules the day in Louisiana. New Orleans, like my old town of St. Louis, is a lesson in Democratic failure. Both cities are swamps and I don’t mean the wet kind. St. Louis had the distinction of being the most dangerous city in the U.S. but I think that earlier this year, New Orleans took that honor.
But never mind, the illegal birth rate in New Orleans is now almost as high as it is in Houston. And all those wonderful French bakeries? Soon to be replaced with tacarias.
Retire
Corruption ruling the day in Louisiana was a big factor in the past. However much of that has been battled back. Nagin was elected and in fact to the horror of everyone outside Louisiana reellected by Republican party support because he had no connection to the machine. The fact that of course he had no machine generally made him pretty powerless sadly in many ways. That is one reason why most blame the Governor not him. Bit even Blanco is not corrupt and was part of the “reform crowd” It will be years before we can outlive the legacy of Edwards. A legacy that got extended by the weirdiest quirk of fate involving David Duke. But People forget we had a good run of Governors that were not dipping their hands in the public trough
THe New Orleans Machine though is a different story. Thankfully that has been decimated to a large degree. As to Hispanic growth that could be a potential bright spot. We are a State with negative population growth as it is. We need all the warm bodies we can get. However, for people to stay we have had something to work at. We shall see if that happens. OF course I am wondering how much of this state will be left if we don’t get serious about Louisiana Coastal Erosion in this nation. Soon the Coast will at I-10
BigLsu, I still feel like you’re missing some point. Hoover ran the flood relief and 18 months later got elected Pres. Question, does that indicate a lot of people were unhappy with what he did?
Dimmicrats were running the local governments that caused the black people their misery and they still elected a dim gov in 1928 (long). Question, if blacks were so unhappy with how the local Dims were treating them, why did they elect them Gov?
You’re saying the flood from 6 yrs before was more influential in the 1932 election than the 1929 stock market crash was? That truly would be a rewrite of history. I have never heard of Hoover getting defeated for any reason other than the stock market crash. Just because some guy wrote his version of history does not make it the truth. How many books have you read that attribute Pres Kennedy’s death to Lee Harvey Oswald, who didn’t have anything at all to do with it, except happened to be in Dallas that day. (and had been set up as the patsy by the mob, a minor detail) So just because it is written down somewhere, you can’t always take it to the bank. Remember if you were to read History from Adolf Hitler’s perspective, it might be quite different than the version a jewish citizen of Germany may have written.
So if you’re saying you’re willing to believe the flood had more influence on the ‘32 election than the market crash, I’m gonna raise my price on my ocean front property in Az. It’s a steal.
If you are a lifelong Republican citizen of La, why do you talk like a liberal?
You think Nagin was re-elected for any other reason than that they allowed non citizens living all over the US to vote absentee ballot, a crooked election if there ever was one. I wouldn’t accuse Blanco of being corrupt, if she is, I have no knowledge of it. But I sure know she was a totally inept, incompetent gov in the crisis. She was totally clueless about how to handle the emergency. The least she could have done was get out of the way.
By the way, when I asked which Flood, I thought for a minute you were referring to Katrina, which of course the Mississippi River had zero to do with flooding New Orleans.
I personally think Vitter did a fine job in this illegal alien deal.
BigLsu, let me direct you to this site. here’s the link and a little excerpt. Seems that they say the Blacks didn’t go to the Dims until the 1936 election and it was primarily due to the prosperity of the blacks in the north during the depression. The blacks had always voted with the Dims in Miss, La, etc even before that time. Now I’ll say again, just because it’s in print doesn’t make it true, but it certainly seems to fit with traditional history as I’ve always heard it as to why Hoover lost in ‘32. Read it and tell me which parts you disagree with. Thanks.
http://www.stthomas.edu/magazine/showarticle.cfm?ArticleID=-1377596272
1936: FDR vs. Alfred Landon
From the 1890s until the Great Depression, a Re-publican coalition of voters had usually dominated the federal government and controlled the White House. Republicans took credit for saving the union, freeing the slaves, presiding over unprecedented economic growth, and creating an economic and territorial empire in Latin America and the Pacific. In the 1920s, the Republican administrations of Harding, Coolidge and Hoover virtually merged the party with the business community.
When the economy collapsed between 1930 and 1932, voters ousted Hoover and the Republicans and elected Franklin Delano Roosevelt in a canvass that was more repudiation of Hoover than endorsement of Roos-evelt. By 1936, however, Roosevelt’s New Deal had destabilized traditional political alignments, causing some voters to switch to the Democrats and other voters to be activated for the first time, creating a coalition that would dominate until the late 1960s.
This coalition formed by FDR’s 1936 sweep began with the traditional Democratic voting blocs of Southern whites and the political machines of the urban North. Three new groups of voters also joined.
The first was Northern blacks, the only blacks who could vote relatively unhindered in the 1930s. Tradition-ally Republican, Northern blacks benefited from the New Deal’s economic recovery and federal relief programs. Eleanor Roosevelt’s public association with black organizations and advisers also influenced black political loyalty. A black editor advised his readers in 1936 to “turn Lincoln’s picture to the wall, that debt has been paid in full.” FDR won 70 percent of the black vote. Black voters have retained their strong support of his party ever since.
“half my state’s under water and the other half’s under indictment”.
I believe it was Tauzin that said that about Louisiana, not Jindal. But Jindal will surely be the next governor.
Enforcement
“If you are a lifelong Republican citizen of La, why do you talk like a liberal?”
Enforcement I am not a liberal at all. In fact I am just recounting history that is neither liberal or conservative. It just is.
I will handle both of your latest post together
“You think Nagin was re-elected for any other reason than that they allowed non citizens living all over the US to vote absentee ballot, a crooked election if there ever was one”
That is pretty false. I could write pages about the dynamics about that election. I was down there in both the Gerneral and the Runoff. IN the General I did support Nagin but along with many Republicans was supporting one of the Democrats we thought we could deal with. There was no fraud to speak of in that election. In the second election the party diehards for various valis reasons supported Nagin against Mitch Landrieu. Nagin won because his support in Republican friendly precincts went from a dismal five and 6 percent up to upper twenties and in some places mid thirties. That vote , which is was Republican is what got Nagin relected. I can tell you with great confidence there were no illegals voting in that elction and for that matter any fraud as to that election was quite low. It actually went pretty smoothly for a City that had been decimated. THe whole out of city ballot absentee controversy was largely a non factor. We were all shocked by how low it was. Also,would not, if there was some plot , those votes go to Nagin opponent who the National Democrats really wanted in?
“I personally think Vitter did a fine job in this illegal alien deal.”
Yes Vitter is playing to the hard right on this issue. Partly because I think he has infuriated the base on being so out there for Guillani. However, we all joke that Vitter appears not be putting too much pressure on INS to come get the illegals out of NOLA and the Coast as they work like mad to help us to prepare for this hurricane season.
“Hoover ran the flood relief and 18 months later got elected Pres. Question, does that indicate a lot of people were unhappy with what he did?”
NO people were not unhappy with what he did? HE got great PR. But the what happened to the black community was largely not reported and Hoover made some amends for his first election to the important African American leaders in the Country at the time
“Dimmicrats were running the local governments that caused the black people their misery and they still elected a dim gov in 1928 (long). Question, if blacks were so unhappy with how the local Dims were treating them, why did they elect them Gov?”
First remember that black folks were not able to vote in great numbers in Mississippi in 1928 to say the least. In fact about only 6 percent of black could vote in Mississippi at the time. Also remember that the Democrat Party in Mississippi was all white by law. Thus making it even more difficult for the small amount of black officeholders. However blacks had some influence because they still recieved patronage from the Republicans when they were power in DC. Needless to say no Republicans were getting elected to statewide office at this time because the party was a nonexistant except for blacks and very few whites
“You’re saying the flood from 6 yrs before was more influential in the 1932 election than the 1929 stock market crash was? That truly would be a rewrite of history. I have never heard of Hoover getting defeated for any reason other than the stock market crash.”
I am talking about the shift of Natiowide African American vote from a Republican to a Democrat. I am not saying that the African American vote alone was the cause of Hoovers defeat. But the massive shift happened and largely because promises made after the 27 Flood were not kept. Blacks had remained Republican voters during previous Economic downturns. The shift of allegiance was on purpose and was in reaction to something
“So if you’re saying you’re willing to believe the flood had more influence on the ‘32 election than the market crash, I’m gonna raise my price on my ocean front property in Az. It’s a steal.”
I am not saying that the black vote alone caused Hoovers defeat or Republican misfortunes in that election cycle. What I am saying is that event of the 27 fllod led to the final nail in the coffin for significant black support for Republicans. However much of this is all swallowed up in the FDR legend and myth that all the Blacks just loved loved FDR and proceeded on the basis of that to vote for him and thus the Democrats forever. That is not exactly how it happened
This book was well written and recieved numerous awards. He also wrote the book on the the great Spanish Influenzia outbreak. Tommorow if the book is in at the Libray I shall return to this thread and pepper it with facts.
This is not exactly hidden history here. It is just that most people are not taught alot about the 27 flood in history(If they get that far) and they are not going to pick up facts about shifting political party alliances relating to it in most high school or College classes they might take
“Corruption ruling the day in Louisiana was a big factor in the past. However much of that has been battled back.”
Man is clearly unacquainted with the term, out of touch with reality.
I believe it was Tauzin that said that about Louisiana, not Jindal. But Jindal will surely be the next governor.
Oh I agree with that. Once Breaux was out it was Jindals for the taking. TO coin the words of Edwin Edwards”the only way Jindal could lose is if “he was caught in bed with a live boy or a dead girl” Legend has it that Edwards said that anyway lol. I ahve a felling it wasnt original
Your attempts to educate these individuals is admirable LSU. But I suspect it will be in vain. These hissyfitters want to just babble on….
Good try.
“Man is clearly unacquainted with the term, out of touch with reality”
Not really. I know that Louisiana is not Plato’s Republic but I take some pride that we thought against the machine and way things were run. To say the least 1987 was a pivitol year in Louisiana politcs when we started having major success. The Roemer Admistration was largely Scandel free. If Daivd Duke had not made his appearance on the scene we would never have had the return of Edwards. The Foster Administration(Republican for 8 years) was to Fosters credit scandal free. Even though I had major problems with Foster. The Blanco administration has largey been scadal free. There are still some characters running around but I am am willing to bet we are pretty close as to any other Deep Southern state (and non southern) as to “corruption” and not now so out of the ordinary.
But never mind, the illegal birth rate in New Orleans is now almost as high as it is in Houston. And all those wonderful French bakeries? Soon to be replaced with tacarias.
Left by retire05 on June 29th, 2007
OMG the chocolate city is in danger call Willy Wonka!
Lsu
I am not old time in that area like you, but I spent a couple of years there living in the Chalmette area building all those casino boats on the Lake and in Metarie and a couple over at Bay St Louis.
I believe New Orleans will be never exactly the same.
My wife and I had traveled to there over many years to visit and from the 60’s on we noted how the population had transitioned form fairly balanced to predominantly black.
We noted the change in feel and all the reports in the Pick paper of increasing crime statistics and inner city turmoil.
We even saw it ourselves. It wasn’t hard to pick up.
Gretna and the lower 9th ward and Gentilley will never be the same.
All those distributed refugees will have no incentive to come back. They are in different areas now which will be more to their liking.
What is the percentage in coming back to concentrate with a lot of effort just to make that happen and rebuild an area where you have drive by shootings more common than trees and your calendar for the week is which funerals to attend and hope there are no conflicts.
Yup and nobody had any hope for crawling out of all that because downtown and the parrish police forces when they died didn’t have to be buried, they could just be screwed into the ground because they were so crooked.
But still it will come back with the music that tells of the heartache.
The new version of Nero playing his fiddle for Rome.
Oh god they are still babbling about the illegal birth rate, about which they have done absolutely nothing.
Nothing. The situation they said was intolerable is still exactly like it was and they have done nothing to fix, change, improve or alter it. Zip.
My own family is Indian, British, Irish and German. I guess that makes me, along with most of us, anchor babies. We are not citizens because our parents were born here, we are citizens because we were born here.. Unless we are naturalized ofcourse.
But then when my people came here all that was necessary was to get off the boat.
Now many of these hispanics that the hardliners like to call names have families who can trace their families back generations in this country. Further even than my own people.
Back in the 20’s the same sort of over the top shrieking rhetoric we hear today was used against the Jews and the Catholics, in fact in the 20’s the Republicans had short term success in keeping some of those people out. It was a generation before many Catholics and Jews would consider voting Republican after that. The Jews blamed these kind of xenophobes years later when their people were being denied entry and as such were doomed to death in Europe.
And then of course when it comes to the South it should be remembered that a lot of the people down there today who are considered Republicans were in fact Democrats not all that long ago.
Things shift, once upon a time New York was a Republican state.
But hey, to the dim bulbs on the right they won because everything is just like it was…which means they can go right on bitching which is all they really care about anyway.
Maybe this can salvaged, at least in pieces…but in order to pass a bill it has to be something the Democrats will tolerate and that is why there was so much in the bill. In other words, the idea was to let everyone have something they wanted.
People can say that is too complicated, but the alternative is a bunch of narrow minded people with no sense of history or a view for the larger picture killing a bill for no reason other than to throw their weight around or punish a particular class of people.
I don’t think those people they targeted will forget. I know I won’t. I have lost respect for a lot of people in the course of this debate. I do not listen to them, read them, watch them. NRO might as well be Kos as far as I am concerned, they are mostly loons.
But don’t worry, I am sure traitors like me will get over it.
A little more history:
From a speech given by Robert H. Clancy, Republican Congressman on April 8,1924 in regards to a restrictionist bill he considered “un-American”:
Since the foundations of the American commonwealth were laid in colonial times over 300 years ago, vigorous complaint and more or less bitter persecution have been aimed at newcomers to our shores. Also the congressional reports of about 1840 are full of abuse of English, Scotch, Welsh immigrants as paupers, criminals, and so forth.
Old citizens in Detroit of Irish and German descent have told me of the fierce tirades and propaganda directed against the great waves of Irish and Germans who came over from 1840 on for a few decades to escape civil, racial, and religious persecution in their native lands.
The “Know-Nothings,” lineal ancestors of the Ku-Klux Klan, bitterly denounced the Irish and Germans as mongrels, scum, foreigners, and a menace to our institutions, much as other great branches of the Caucasian race of glorious history and antecedents are berated to-day. All are riff-raff, unassimilables, “foreign devils,” swine not fit to associate with the great chosen people—a form of national pride and hallucination as old as the division of races and nations.
But to-day it is the Italians, Spanish, Poles, Jews, Greeks, Russians, Balkanians, and so forth, who are the racial lepers. And it is eminently fitting and proper that so many Members of this House with names as Irish as Paddy’s pig, are taking the floor these days to attack once more as their kind has attacked for seven bloody centuries the fearful fallacy of chosen peoples and inferior peoples. The fearful fallacy is that one is made to rule and the other to be abominated. . . .
In this bill we find racial discrimination at its worst—a deliberate attempt to go back 84 years in our census taken every 10 years so that a blow may be aimed at peoples of eastern and southern Europe, particularly at our recent allies in the Great War—Poland and Italy.
Jews In Detroit Are Good Citizens
Of course the Jews too are aimed at, not directly, because they have no country in Europe they can call their own, but they are set down among the inferior peoples. Much of the animus against Poland and Russia, old and new, with the countries that have arisen from the ruins of the dead Czar’s European dominions, is directed against the Jew.
We have many American citizens of Jewish descent in Detroit, tens of thousands of them—active in every profession and every walk of life. They are particularly active in charities and merchandising. One of our greatest judges, if not the greatest, is a Jew. Surely no fair-minded person with a knowledge of the facts can say the Jews or Detroit are a menace to the city’s or the country’s well-being. . . .
Forty or fifty thousand Italian-Americans live in my district in Detroit. They are found in all walks and classes of life—common hard labor, the trades, business, law, medicine, dentistry, art, literature, banking, and so forth.
They rapidly become Americanized, build homes, and make themselves into good citizens. They brought hardihood, physique, hope, and good humor with them from their outdoor life in Sunny Italy, and they bear up under the terrific strain of life and work in busy Detroit.
One finds them by thousands digging streets, sewers, and building foundations, and in the automobile and iron and steel fabric factories of various sorts. They do the hard work that the native-born American dislikes. Rapidly they rise in life and join the so-called middle and upper classes. . . .
The Italian-Americans of Detroit played a glorious part in the Great War. They showed themselves as patriotic as the native born in offering the supreme sacrifice.
In all, I am informed, over 300,000 Italian-speaking soldiers enlisted in the American Army, almost 10 percent of our total fighting force. Italians formed about 4 percent of the population of the United States and they formed 10 percent of the American military force. Their casualties were 12 percent. . . .
Detroit Satisfied With The Poles
I wish to take the liberty of informing the House that from my personal knowledge and observation of tens of thousands of Polish-Americans living in my district in Detroit that their Americanism and patriotism are unassailable from any fair or just standpoint.
The Polish-Americans are as industrious and as frugal and as loyal to our institutions as any class of people who have come to the shores of this country in the past 300 years. They are essentially home builders, and they have come to this country to stay. They learn the English language as quickly as possible, and take pride in the rapidity with which they become assimilated and adopt our institutions.
Too bad there were not more Republicans like Clancy, but then as now he was the exception to the rule. I wonder if they called him traitor for thinking that Poles and Jews and Italians and Catholics could ever be real Americans.
Actually the center collapsed on the immigration bill. They did not event get a plurality – and most of the freshman Dems voted against cloture – so this was not just a far right vote. I always find that when people resort to name-calling and hateful accusations to prove their point – then they lack facts to win the day – high on emotion and low on logic.
I don’t care about either party or any special interest pac for illegals and amnesty – I care about my children living in a free country – and living without fear of terrorism or having socialism turning them into servants of the state with taxation and overbearing regulations. I will vote for whichever politcian can guarantee this – regardless of party affiliation.
Terrye’s argument trying to equate today’s immigration with that of the 19th century is so full of holes that it should be melted on a sandwich, not used as an example of today’s immigration issue. She says herself, that the immigrants of yesteryear were trying to escape “civil, racial and religious persecution in their native lands”. That is not the case today. The Latinos, who make up 80% of illegal immigrants, are not trying to escape any of those things. They are not running FROM something, they are running TO something and the something is money that they know will be greater than what they earn in their native lands. A second major difference is political view point. The immigration of the past were running FROM oppressive goverments where they had no hope of changing that due to lack of economic power. The new wave of immigrations do not have that distinction. They have the power to change their government, a fact that Hugo Chavez is becoming rapidly aware of as over 20,000 shouted down his government at a stadium yesterday with shouts of “Freedom”. The number of illegal immigrants who come here for persecution reasons are relatively small. The drive is economics, pure and simple. So there are just two of the differences.
Terrye wants to point out that 300,000 Italian speaking people joined the military (since there is no link for her numbers, I assume she cannot back that statement up, oh wait, she says she is informed, which simply means someone told her that and she has no proof, as usual) but what she doesn’t tell you is that the second generations of immigrants prior to say the 1970’s almost always used English as their first language and when they marched into the streets of Paris they were greeted as Americans, not some hyphenated hybrid. What she did not say is that English became the symbol of assimilation in immigrants who learned it as quickly as possible, equating English with success and becoming an American and there is another difference in the two waves of immigrants.
When the Irish came, many were turned away. Unlike those who swim the Rio Grande, they suffered on “coffin” ships for many months and the ones who made it were not home free yet. They had to go through ports of entry like Ellis Island, be subjected to a medical exam (anyone unhealthy was turned away and returned to Ireland) and during one period of time, could not enter the U.S. unless they had $200.00 cold hard cash on them. Once here, they were not granted citizenship just because they had managed to get here. Many never became citizens for a number of reasons; some were just too old to learn English well enough to pass the citizenship test, some just wanted to work and go back to their native land when things got better and some were just too lazy (but not many). Those that had it the easiest were the Irish, who had already spoke English in Ireland. But Ireland was also a nation that was torn, partly because it was ruled by a foreign government (the British) and partly because it was a nation divided by language.
The immigrants of the 19th century made no demands on their new home land other than being able to work. They did not march in the streets demanding social services they were not entitled to, they did not ruin the hospital systems by using them for skinned knees, hangovers, spinters in a finger. They sent their children to school and their children were taught in English and they did not demand that their children be provided with teachers who spoke their native tongue. Were there teachers who spoke their native tongue? Yes, but only because those teachers already knew the language and not because of any demands placed on the schools by the immigrants.
And the one big difference between the immigrants of the 19-20th centuries and the immigrants of today? Respect. Respect for the nation that had taken them. Respect for the rule of law (and don’t throw up the gangs of Five Points, I know they existed, but they were choir boys compared to MS-13). And they did not demand that which they were not entitled to have. Just a job. Not citizenship, not free social services, not anything we have seen in the new crop of immigrants.
The Irish probably example the greatest wave of immigrants in the past due to the potato famine (the potato being their main substanance). But the Irish also represent the largest group of Americans who have returned to their native land (Ireland in the 20-21st century).
If those who want to immigrat to America are willing to stand in line (as the past ones did at Ellis Island), be subjected to a medical exam and show proof that they can support themselves until they are settled, I have no problem with that.
But Terrye, if you are going to use past immigration as a baseline, at least learn something about it besides your pro-amnesty talking points.
“I can tell you with great confidence there were no illegals voting in that elction and for that matter any fraud as to that election was quite low.”
Patently ridiculous. There is no way you can know who voted from other states, whether they were or were not citizens, you’re trying to claim knowledge of something you have no way of having.
“I am talking about the shift of Natiowide African American vote from a Republican to a Democrat.”
But you’re talking about a shift in 1932 which defeated Hoover and elected FDR, this big shift you’re talking about occurred in 1936, not ‘32. Since it was after Hoover was already out of office, your whole thesis is ficticious.
Also this quote:
“First remember that black folks were not able to vote in great numbers in Mississippi in 1928 to say the least. In fact about only 6 percent of black could vote in Mississippi at the time. Also remember that the Democrat Party in Mississippi was all white by law. Thus making it even more difficult for the small amount of black officeholders.”
actually takes away from your argument, remember this massive swing of blacks from Repub to Dim got FDR elected. If there was practically no black voters in the election how could it have made a difference even if 100% shifted. No again, the big shift was in 1936 when the depression was the determining factor. Now I’m not going to say the depression didn’t cause a big shift. It certainly did, but then that wouldn’t support that it was the action of a Repub Pres (who was not the Pres at the time) caused the big shift. You can attempt to re-write history, but you won’t get a taker unless it at least makes sense. Put up some numbers in your argument that show that there was a large change in Black vote in Ms, La, Ar in 32 vs 28 and that that difference swung those states from Rep to Dem. then I can buy your thesis. Otherwise, I can’t buy it. Just because you might like it to be that way to prove a point ain’t gonna make it happen.
Terrye, quit trying to make it a racial issue, Big Lsu just made a claim and you chiming in trying to make it a racial issue shows your lack of mentality.
I thought you skipped over what I write and don’t respond to me. You trying to suck up to Big Lsu Guy for a reason. Go on back and polish AJ’s apples for him. You’re adding nothing to the discussion. Racist generally don’t add much.
BigLsuGuy, go ahead and comment, I’m gonna be announcing some ball games for the next few hours and be away, but I’ll respond later.
have a good day.
FE, Terrye is trying to play five card draw with four jokers and a race card. I leave it up to you to decide who the four jokers are.
Terrye
Excellent post. Coming from a State where so many people have a non Anglo background it gets infuriating how many people have forgotten their own history. I find it ironic that people call this “pulling the race card”. While the race card or ethnic card” is being pulled all the time by some that oppose this bill. The argument of “pulling the race card” is just a conservative version of Political Correctness often enough. That is a attempt to shut down discussion of the obvious around us.
In the end the proponents of Comprehensive immigration reform find themselves in a curious position. They are opposed by the far extremes on both sides. The far left finds our proposals too harsh and not emphatic to the immigrant. The other political extremes accuses us of being sell outs, of having hidden motivations etc.
That is why it takes political courage to deal with this issue.
Enforcement:
“Patently ridiculous. There is no way you can know who voted from other states, whether they were or were not citizens, you’re trying to claim knowledge of something you have no way of having.”
Enforcement thereis no evidence at all that non citizens voted at any significant levels in the New Orleans Mayor election. Why they would vote for Ray Nagin is beyond me even if they could. That everything is about the illegals. Admit that and that is the first step toward recovery
“But you’re talking about a shift in 1932 which defeated Hoover and elected FDR, this big shift you’re talking about occurred in 1936, not ‘32. Since it was after Hoover was already out of office, your whole thesis is ficticious.”
The Shift was well underway because of Hoover’s broken promises.
As to your comment about Black voters in Louisiana and Missisippi. That is not the key . First we started to see the shift of attitudes. THe Black community had finally had enough of the Republican Party that in the end was not looking out for them epsecially in the deep South. This process started way before these events. THis was the straw that broke the camels back and started the shift in thinking.
What is significant is that large amount of these former “nonvoters” after about 18 months of displacement went up North in the one of the largest migrations of people we have ever seen in this Country. They went to Northern Cities and thus became voters where they could not vote before
Again the point is that little things matter. No one would have predicted that these events and GOP leaderships reaction to it would start to cause massive shifts in voter alliegance. Of course the anger was building up for some time. Much of this is of course with cause.
Biglsufan, who made immigration reform a race issue? Was it the KKK or followers of David Duke? Or was it the millions who marched in our cities with signs saying they were going to “reconquest” our nation and being funded by a socialist group, United For Peace and Justice? Who pushed for ballots in Spanish? Who pushed for signs at businesses like Wal-Mart in Spanish? Who is it that calls their own organization “The Race”? And why, if these organizers are not pushing their own socialistic view points, would they align themselves with groups, like UPJ, that are?
Here is a news flash; Hispanics do not think of themselves as anything but caucasian (results can be found at Pew) and being Hispanic is not a race, it is a nationality.
I heard a guy on a radio show yesterday that said he had a right to be here (illegally) because Americans can travel between states and that is a right. Nevermind he does not recognize the sovereignty of a nation. He said he was taught in Mexico that he had a right to go anywhere he wanted and he didn’t think his government was wrong on that issue.
The race issue was drummed up by the organizations who tout being matizmo (sp?). That is Mexico’s answer to the Cherokees but the number of native Indian Mexicans is small and they are also looked down on in their own nation.
Now, who on the “enforcement first” side is pushing this as a race issue? I really don’t care what nation an illegal comes from. And I think that immigrants from other nations should be allowed entry, legal entry. But to be honest with you, the over 8,000 illegal Irishmen here in the U.S. should be made to enter legally or leave. How is that “racist”?
Remember this, biglsufan, when we no longer enforce some laws, we will be unable to enforce any of the laws.
Ok, I am now at the library and have access to the book.Again any lover of American History and are just curious of why things are the way they are today should Read Rising Tide by John Barry.
It is a very well documented book. This is just one aspect. It also goes into what many Southerners knew about the Klan and the power struggle by the Southern Ruling class and politicians to control it and fight it. People forget that the Klan was often the result of Populism gone mad
My main focus here is how the GOP has made mistakes in the past and we should not repeat them here as to hispanics. This is a fine lesson in fumbling and mistakes. That we are starting to see signs of in Hispanic Republican oriented Florida for instance.
Chapt 35
“Al Smiths nominations provided an opportunity for both a historic Republican Landslide and to create a competitive Republican party in the South-a “lily white” republican party. After securing the nomination with black support, Hoover moved to build such a party.
“It began with a deal with white Mississippi Republicans at the National convention, a deal know to Hoover when he talked to Moten”. ” THe white Mississippians sought credentials. Instead an an assistant attorney general who chaired the Creditentitals committee seated Perry Howard, a black National committeman from Mississippi who supported Hoover, The Whites did not protestr. A few weeks later the same assistant Attorney Genral indicted him for selling patronage jobs. ( A white Mississippi jury later accuited him”
“This Incident combined with continued attacks fromt he Chicago defender oon Hoovers role in Flood relief aroused anger among blacks.
“As Hoovers aids pursued the Southern strategy a wedge opened between Blacks and the Republican party.
In 1928 Hoover had alreasy lost 15 percent of the black votes. Major black paers such as the Baltimore Afro American, the Boston Guardian, and the Louisville NEws all endorsed Smith
I will skip the the litany of Hoovers bad moves after 28 but of interest is the nomination of a blatent racist to the Supreme Court and severe cuts to the 10th Cavarly the famous all black combat Unit that would force more black combat soilders into servile roles to white officers.
“In 1932, Moton Refused to endorse Hoover for relection. That year Hoover received a majority of the black vote, but he had driven a wedge btween Republicans and even the most loyal black leaders that was splitting them asunder”
One final note. If one picks up Rising Tide be sure to go to the Index and read the section on immigrants. The often forgotten ,except by the old, mistreatment of Italians and prejudice is very well recorded. Italian immigratns were resented and much of the same arguments made against hispanics today were made against them. Lynchings were not as to blacks and others in the South
11 Italains were lynched in New Orleans in 1891, Five were lynched in Tallulah Louisana, 3 in hahanville Louisian in 1891. In 1907 the situation got so out of hand the Italian govt demanded a investigation
AJ I have said this over and over again and I hope someday you will understand how most people really feel. Those of us who where around in 1986 had amnesty rammed down our throats whith no solution which has lead us to the problem we have today. Even Pres. Regan admitted it was a mistake. Americans are very tolerant people and we have no problems with immigrants, but if you don’t fix the problem americans will not put up with illegals. FIX THE BOARDERS FIRST THEN COME BACK WITH YOUR AMNESTY PLAN!
Hmmmmm, let’s see, whom do I believe?
AJ…or Fred Barnes & Democratic Pollster Stan Greenburg:
“Democratic pollster Stan Greenberg found that a majority of Republicans and independents opposed the immigration bill. Democrats were split evenly.
Worse for Democrats, the poll suggested the reelection of some Democratic members of Congress might be jeopardized if they backed immigration
reform. “Demagogic attacks are not ineffective,” Greenberg found. “In terms of the battleground districts, immigration attacks are more likely to play a key role in Democratic rural and exurban districts where opposition towards immigration is stronger and Democrats hold a smaller advantage.”,/b>
So Democrats in Washington, with the exception of Kennedy and senators Dianne Feinstein of California and Ken Salazar of Colorado, were not enthusiastic about the bill. Reid was lukewarm at best. And all five Democrats running for reelection in red states in 2008–Max Baucus of Montana, Tom Harkin of Iowa, Mary Landrieu of Louisiana, Mark Pryor of Arkansas, and Jay Rockefeller of West Virginia–voted to kill the bill.
The entire article is worth reading:
Things Fall Apart
Test
Just to be Fair however, and show BOTH sides, as some will NOT; this is also from the same article:
“While opposition to the bill may aid individual senators, it clearly undercuts Republican efforts to capture the Hispanic vote. Hispanics paid close attention to the Senate deliberations, and while Democrats–Reid especially–bear some of the responsibility for the bill’s downfall, Republicans bear more. After all, the leading Republican foes claimed credit for the bill’s demise.
Hispanics are the fastest-growing voting bloc in the country, and they are basically swing voters. According to exit polls, they voted 44 percent for Bush in 2004 but only 29 percent for Republican congressional candidates in 2006. As a result of Republicans’ role in killing the immigration bill, “I believe we’re reinforcing everything” that brought us to 29 percent, said Graham, one of the bill’s architects. He’s right about that.”
Test again for BOLD!
AJ,
I always respect your analysis, and on most issues I agree with you 1o0%. I just think you ar emissing something here. I am glad that this bill failed because while it did have some good ideas, it just wasn’t good enough. The push to make it totally comprehensive just doesn’t make sense to me in this case. It is too complex of a problem that has been going on for far too long with way too many moving parts to just slam all of the provisions of the now dead bill through. This problem has to be solved over time — Secure the border (not as big of a contributor to illegal immigration as the “hypochondriachs” like to make it out to be. While the border (North and South) is being fortified, we need to build a process to identify and detain/deport those who overstay their visa’s, Canadians included, and especially those from countries of interest. Create a real, robust employee verification system for all new hires at any company. Then let’s get normalization going in a way that is compassionate but has our nation’s interest and security first. Probably a 3-5 year process.
Forget about triggers. If Congress is capable of reforming immagration in a deliberate, reasonable way, I’m all for it. It that possible in the current DC climate? I’m not so sure. But I am confident that this is the only way forward. Any “comprehensive” one bill solution will probably get the same response next time around.
I would love to hear your thoughts on this AJ.
“Even Pres. Regan admitted it was a mistake.”
Can someone provide a link on this. Michael Reagan seems to be the only one that “says” this conversation occurred. But yet I have never seen one thing from the Reagan Library or his papers or hois post Presidential papers where Reagan said this. It might have occured but I rarely see any eveidence of it
AJ – This defeat can be either a total disaster or tremendous success for our Republican party and it is the president alone that has the power and responsibility to make that decision.
I see the defeat of the amnesty bill as a great opportunity, as well as a disastrous threat, to the future of our Republican Party. Rasmussen says that 80% of the people support securing the border first and President Bush already has enough existing law on the books that will take us far towards that goal, speaking specifically about the fence law of 2006 which deals largely with Mexican border fencing which the public sees being irritatingly penetrated every night on their TV’s.
President Bush alone has the Power and responsibility to get this job done but he has never wanted a secure border with Mexico and I don’t believe he ever will. What President Bush fails to recognize is that by refusing to enforce our existing laws he is leaving himself wide open to impeachment charges when the very first terrorist or bomb goes off in the USA that is proven to have come into our country across the Mexican border. His good buddy, Ted Kennedy and the other Democrats, along with our very own backstabbing Senate Republican Amnesty Bill supporters will be demanding the immediate Impeachment of Bush to cover their own butts. We must change our president’s mind and do what ever is necessary to prevent this from happening because it will totally destroy our chances in the 2008 elections. A Mexican bomb will be a glorious event with the MSM and the Democrats. Just remember connecting the dots after 911???
Somehow, we must change our president’s mind and get him to declare that implementing the fence law of 2006 has been moved to the top of his agenda. Perhaps a declaration that he is going to completed this fence in 6 months and will issue an executive order, if necessary, to overcome any and all obstacles that stands in his way.
Our president would immediately regain the support of his base, get the support of 80% of the people, eliminate the impeachment threat he has brought upon himself and set the stage to wipe out the Congressional Democrats in the 2008 elections if they support the president and promise to deal with the balance of the immigration issues, one at a time, when they win back congress in 2008.
President Bush alone has this power and responsibility. It is our responsibility to make him understand the potential disaster, or opportunity, that has been created by his clay pigeon amnesty bill blunder. Somehow, we must make this happen!!
“Somehow, we must change our president’s mind and get him to declare that implementing the fence law of 2006 has been moved to the top of his agenda. Perhaps a declaration that he is going to completed this fence in 6 months and will issue an executive order, if necessary, to overcome any and all obstacles that stands in his way.”
As I have pointed out there is a segment of people on the border mainly landowners that are screaming that the Govt is moving to fast. That in fact the Govt is violating the law by taking in their concerns as to the fence and how it shall be conducted. This is all been talked about several times.
Bush cannot a issue that violates a Congressional Law. That provision was put in by “amnetesy” Opponent Kay Baily Hutchinson. If people have a problem with that law they need to take up with her
“A Mexican bomb will be a glorious event with the MSM and the Democrats. Just remember connecting the dots after 911???”
What happens if in the more likely scenario a Islamic terrorist crossess the Northern Border and something happens.
It’s funny the more I read the comments I come to the same conclusion REPS. will do just fine in 08 for one reason we are unified in what we beleive in we may have some disagreements of how we would like to implement these policies but being a republican means it is one big tent and we all should have different opinions.
Biglsufan, what some ranchers are screaming about is water rights to the Rio Grande. But ooops, the SCOTUS has already taken care of that. Eminant domain laws. Remember? Land can and will be taken to provide a fence if the administration decides to do it.
Those ranchers are legitimately concerned about water but the water problem can be handled with other solutions. One problem is that Mexico is screaming about the water removed from the Rio Grande. But it has not stopped Mexico from stiffing us (Texas) on the billions of gallons they owe us that we agreed to give them (with a repayment provision) when they were suffering a draught. Now Mexico, which has an overabundance of water due to rains, is refusing to repay Texas for the water they borrowed.
Let me ask you pro-amnesty bunch this; if we are going to grant amnesty to illegals for violating our laws, what laws can I violate each and every day and be given amnesty for? Can I continue to get a speeding ticket every day without the fear of jail? Can I refuse to pay taxes and then have the government give me a pass for those years? If I am ordered by the courts to pay my taxes and still refuse to do so, will the government let me get by with it?
For the record, Fred Barnes on Brit Hume’s show said he was not against this bill.
And listening to STAN GREENBERG? Are you kidding?
Puhlese.
Reitre, I challenge you to engage in a conversation with George W. Bush about spending and the Medicare Prescription bill.
When all is said and done you may have to eat your words, no disrespect intended. The Bush “spending like a drunken soldier” is a lie that has perpetrated the airwaves. Check out the law on what MUST be spent according to our budgets…put into law by congress, not the President.
And I will say again for the thousandth time, George W. Bush averted a world-wide depression after the attack on the World Financial Markets. Money needed to be flushed into the system BIGTIME. And tax cuts needed to generate the highest REVENUE to the government in how long? And are we or are we not speeding up the repayment of debt? Answer: hell yes.
The man has been incredibly responsible when it comes to this. Again, no disrespect intended, but this populist chant about spending by George is bogus and you don’t know what you are talking about when it comes to what the economy needed after 9/11. Again, no disrespect intended. Just check out the truth.
Abundance is ours, sir, as it is to all in the world, if you really want it.
And frankly, I would rather have my tax dollars going to the Medicare Prescription bill than to bridges in Alaska or to the 25% waste that occurs from sending out ssi checks to dead people.
Well really I think the better comparison with today’s hardliners would be with the Know Nothings, who firmly believed that the Irish Catholics were part of an invasion force sent by the Pope to take over America. In fact they believed the Pope would take over Cincinnati by force.
Thank God for Abraham Lincoln, he put them down.
But the same paranoia and sense of conspiracy and persecution is seen in much of the rhetoric of today’s hardliners.
People who by and large did not say a word about any of this until the last couple of years, during which they lost their minds in a sort of mass hysteria.
So far in spite of all the preaching they have done about law and order they have accomplished nothing of any substance. They have not done much of anything other than make themselves look over the top.
I would find it easier to take them seriously if they had made any realistic attempts to deal with the problem in a rational way, but they did not and have not.
So, my question is, if this is sooo important, where the hell were you people? Don’t give me some crap about how you always cared blah blah blah. Newt did not do squat about this, no one made an issue of it in earlier primaries.
And this stuff about Bush making the fence a priority. Do people have any idea how our government works? I mean really? Any at all? Congress wrote the bill, there is a bid process, there are environmental impact studies, they have to work with the locals, allocate the money.
Sometimes I read some of the stuff hardliners write and say and I think they sound like children wanting a trip to Disney Land and they do not understand why they can’t go right this minute. sniff.
And yet for our entire history there has been no wall. Bush is the first president who ever signed such a bill. I don’t think people have any realistic idea about what is actually involved in doing something like this. And they don’t care if they have a realistic idea either. Realistic means nothing to them.
And as for amnesty, there were millions of people here before 1986, long before anyone ever said anything about any kind of amnesty, people were here. And so far as I have heard, most of the hardliners just want to work these people when and if they need them and ignore them anyway. That is not a deterrent to people coming. The hardliners have no plan to deal with the people here, other than waving a magic wand and making the bad wet back go away, so all their yammering about the proamnesty people is pretty funny considering their own hypocritical stance on the issue.
I don’t really care if these people get amnesty or not, but I do want to see more security measures and tougher work place enforcement as well as reform of our legal immigration system and the only way to get that is through bipartisan support. That means give and take.
Or you can just pitch a fit and end up with nothing.
ivehadit:
Bush has cut the deficit by almost half already.
But as to the Drug Prescription Program. Those people are already on Medicare, if they can not afford their insulin who pays for the stroke or the amputated limb? I work with people who use this program and believe it or not the conservative Republicans who qualify use it just like everyone else.
And when Bush tried to privatize SS, he got practically no help from the whiney right. For all their crap about spending money.
But, I tell you what, let some Republican run promising to cut Social Security, Medicare, education, health care and domestic infrastructure and just see what happens to him. That is not what people want. Congress would never support it.
More bad news for Warpublicans
CNN Poll: When asked “Do you think it is a good for the country or bad for the country that the Democrats control Congress?”
57% of respondents said “Good for the country.” The only way for the Warpublicans to stave off total disaster is for the Warpublicans to call for impeachment of the criminals Bush and Cheney.
Note to For Enforcement: I knew there was a reason you had so much trouble keeping up, and now you’ve admitted the reason – an impaired IQ. If you need help with the big words, let me know and I’ll put some horsepower (156 Wechsler/176 Standford Binet) to work and walk you through the hard parts.
Well you know they say the Unabomber had a high IQ as well. So did Tim McVeigh.
“Let me ask you pro-amnesty bunch this; if we are going to grant amnesty to illegals for violating our laws, what laws can I violate each and every day and be given amnesty for? Can I continue to get a speeding ticket every day without the fear of jail? Can I refuse to pay taxes and then have the government give me a pass for those years? If I am ordered by the courts to pay my taxes and still refuse to do so, will the government let me get by with it? ”
So are you saying that we get the borders secured to your estimation, that we should bother to come talk to you about what you refer to as Amnesty or any sort of legalization for the illegals. JUst asking
I hear SECURE THE BORDERS FIRST and then we will talk. I am just trying to keep track of who is supporting what after “we secure the borders”
“But, I tell you what, let some Republican run promising to cut Social Security, Medicare, education, health care and domestic infrastructure and just see what happens to him. That is not what people want. Congress would never support it.”
Isnt that the truth Terrye. Myu grandparents were bitching left and right about the cost of presciption medicine. Now not so much. Something had to be done.
Spend money on a boondoggle of a Fence that will largely be ineffective becuase it is not even the kind of fencing we need or spend it on the old folks. I think I know what I pick.
Conservatives as to this issue have gone on a spending spree and I don’t think they have an idea of what they want.
Excellent editorial from National Review Online:
June 29, 2007 8:00 AM
Immigration Reform, for Real
By The Editors
For months, the establishment dismissed those of us opposed to amnesty as a tiny minority of the public and the Congress. On Thursday, that “tiny minority” outnumbered the pro-amnesty forces in the Senate, dealing a humiliating and well-deserved defeat to President Bush. The same White House that insisted that there was no realistic alternative to “comprehensive immigration reform” had better recalibrate its realism now. There always were better alternatives, and the president and his party have no way out of the immigration morass he has created unless they pursue them.
Nor does the country. The public is rightly dismayed at our incapacity to exercise a key attribute of sovereignty: control of the borders. For decades, our elected officials have passed immigration laws that they lack the political will to enforce. Among the fallacies of “comprehensive reform” was the notion that this situation could be fixed instantaneously. It cannot. But by rejecting a solution that would make the problem worse, we may have taken the first of many steps toward a better immigration system.
The next step ought to be President Bush’s. As divisive as this debate has been, it did reveal a consensus on the need to enforce current laws. The president should accept that consensus and act on it. If necessary, he should request additional authority and resources for the purpose.
Under current law, the border can be secured and the administration can crack down on scofflaw employers. Contractors can be required to enroll in the government’s employee-verification system as a condition of doing business with the federal government. The Social Security Administration identifies tens of thousands of W-2 forms with false or stolen Social Security numbers. The IRS can fine employers who file a significant number of such forms.
In arguing for the comprehensive reform, Homeland Security chief Michael Chertoff said that his department needed data from the Social Security Administration to enforce the law on employers. There never was any need to hold that simple reform hostage to amnesty, and the president should ask Congress to enact it now. He should also clarify that state and local law-enforcement agencies have the constitutional authority to make arrests for violations of federal immigration laws.
Bush could also learn from some of the amendments offered during the recent debate. Court-ordered restrictions on deportation should, where possible, be eased. “Sanctuary cities” ought to be penalized. So should visitors who overstay their visas.
The president’s error has been to regard controlling immigration and welcoming newcomers as polar opposites. But a sensible control of immigration would provide both an economic basis for new immigrants to succeed and a political basis for them to be greeted warmly. And in any case, Republicans who seek their own political health no longer have a choice in the matter.
Those who profit from porous borders took a risk when they broached the topic of comprehensive reform: that the public, long inattentive to the causes of our failing policy, might start taking a closer look. It is going to be much harder for the political class to follow its accustomed course. If the president charts a new one, he will have the support of the public and even some Democrats. If Congress balks, he will have in his hands a winning issue. That would be a nice change of pace, wouldn’t it?
Of course fences won’t work. That is why they are around the White House, prisons, high security military bases and Area 51. Because they don’t work.
And biglsufan, you are dodging when you answer a question with a question. Again, what laws am I allowed to violate day after day?
If illegals are allowed to not pay back taxes, how can the government legitimately do that? That would be considered discrimination against one group of Americans, those who are natural born/naturalized. If illegals are allowed to attend a university, paying in-state tuition, that will be one of the first things challanged in court. You cannot give one group benefits that you don’t give another. I believe if challanged all the way to SCOTUS, they would rule that all students were eligible for in-state tuition.
You see, this bill was a judicial nightmare. Anyone who read the bill knew that.
Why is it that the illegal who stole my SS# cannot be arrest because the Social Security Administration is not allowed to share informtion with the judicial system? Identity theft is rampant and it is hard working Americans who are paying the price.
There was nothing, absolutely nothing, in this bill that acted in the best interest of the citizens of the United States. It should have been called the “Terrorist Protection Act” since it gave so much freedom and benefits to illegals. And yes, we need to close our northern border as well, but the last time I checked, there were not 500K to a million French Canadians sneaking across the border every year.
Big Lsu, I gave you 8+ hours and you couldn’t come up with ANY numbers showing that great shift. Hmmmmm.
The Shift was well underway because of Hoover’s broken promises.
Terrye, the more I read from you the more you remove all doubt that you are clueless.
\
And when Bush tried to privatize SS, he got practically no help from the whiney right. For all their crap about spending money.
The right is the ones that wanted SS privatized.
Soothie, when I said North of 140, I didn’t say how far north, people don’t believe that crap anyhow, but I will say you almost got into my range. Maybe a retest?
05,
Comparingthe effectiveness of a small enclosure fence with “the great wall” fence” is inappropriate.
“Forgiving back taxes” is a common part of settling with delinquent taxpayers. And many crimes by citizens escape punishment due to the ststute of limitations.
Will you benefit from the SS taxes paid into your account by an illegal? The rest of us do by millions of young workers contributing to a program they won’t collect from.
BigLsuGuy, you are emulating AJ and quoting only the stats you think support your side of the discussion.
And so the number of black registered republicans in Ark, La, and Ms that changed their registration between 1927 and 1932 and voted Dimmicrat is? When you claim that Hoovers actions caused a major shift in those states and they voted for FDR instead of Hoover and that is why Hoover lost. You need to publish the numbers that show that. Quoting numbers in the North between 1932 that caused a shift in 1936 doesn’ t cut it. It only PROVES that the depression caused the shift.
I don’t care anything about all that crap about rising tide by some yayhoo with an ax to grind writing HIS version of HIStory. Unless you can pull some numbers out of the book that actually support your thesis, then you’re wasting your time and mine.
I heard Fred Barnes say the other day he supported the immigration bill, haven’t heard that he changed his mind.
Krauthammer was against it. Kondrake was neutral(I think) Billy Kristol was against it. Brit Hume was against it. Juan williams and the girl were for it.
“Big Lsu, I gave you 8+ hours and you couldn’t come up with ANY numbers showing that great shift. Hmmmmm.
The Shift was well underway because of Hoover’s broken promises.”
I quoted some from a book the book this morning. If there is true great interest in this subject I shall go back and research there and look for any available data. I was also sort of busy interacting on the new Vatican Document on China this morning so I admit iwas juggling two things.
Also, there will be no shifts to from Republicans to Democats in Mississippit because as I stated one has to be white to be a Democrat. I shall have to check to see what the status of Party laws were in Louisiana and Arkansas for that time. So not there will be no shift in Mississippi Registrations from Republicans to Democrat because that was impossible at that TIME.
Again, his research on the subject has never eeally been seriously questioned by any Republican that I know of and he is pointing to just plain historical fact
“Of course fences won’t work. That is why they are around the White House, prisons, high security military bases and Area 51. Because they don’t work.
And biglsufan, you are dodging when you answer a question with a question. Again, what laws am I allowed to violate day after day”
Retire05
LOL, Ok yeah the White House and Area 51 is a apt comparison. By the way when I was a kid we kids would all stick in and climb the fence at the Barksdale Reservation AFB base. So I guess that doesnt count.
Let us talk about the thousands of cases daily where people climb fences and break into business. I think that is far more apt
Also, I take it from your answer that you fit in the category that even if the borders are secured what you call “amnesty” is never a option. That is ok. That is a valid political opinion. I am just trying keep up with people’s views on Regularization of the illegals are
When the car bomb goes off at a mall or sporting event near you and an Islamic fanatic is found to have waltzed across our southern border to get here, the consevative postion of secure the borders first might make sense to some of you amnesty at any price folks. First post thanks for letting me join in!
BigLsuGuy, if this is true:
“Also, there will be no shifts to from Republicans to Democats in Mississippit because as I stated one has to be white to be a Democrat. I shall have to check to see what the status of Party laws were in Louisiana and Arkansas for that time. So not there will be no shift in Mississippi Registrations from Republicans to Democrat because that was impossible at that TIME.”
Then you will admit that your original thesis, that Hoover caused a massive change in the black republican vote changing to Dims in the south because of his poor performance in the flood is what caused FDR to win the election. You are now admitting that there WAS NO shift in the south, that in fact it wasn’t even possible.
So why don’t you just start back at square one and admit you were just attempting to blow smoke to make a point that would score with host. Better luck next time.
BigLsuGuy so you don’t have to look it up to recall what you said earlier.
“Oh well I don’t know where all the stuff I wrote went on the Great Flood and how that shifted Blacks alliance s fro the Republican Party to the Democrat Party. Needless to say to give it a short recap. Hoovers fumbling and broken promises so aggravted the Black community that the black leadership delivered the black vote to Franklin Roosevelt and thus the Democrats forever. See the book Rising Tide by JOun Barry that goes into detail about this”
Let me remind you, you’re now saying they couldn’t have done that because they couldn’t vote Dimmicrat in the south. We were specifically talking about the vote in the south, remember.
Retire will you please stop arguing with Bigbluesports fan logic does not apply to him.
YOU and I know walls work Are they perfect No what it is. But they do work and that is his problem and others like him
They will have to listen to the wailing and crying about those poor people being denied or dying at the border.
Heaven forbid we do anything that offends any one any more Just give away the country.
Edward Gibbons!
Retire will you please stop arguing with Bigbluesports fan logic does not apply to him.
YOU and I know walls work Are they perfect No what it is. But they do work and that is his problem and others like him
They will have to listen to the wailing and crying about those poor people being denied or dying at the border.
Heaven forbid we do anything that offends any one any more Just give away the country.
Edward Gibbons!
Spartan,
Walls work because you say so. Can’t argue with that logic.
As if CNN has ANY credibility…LOL!
The hard Left is as out of touch as the hard right…
Macker: If you think that the fence around Area 51 is small, you need to take a trip around it’s parimeter.
Biglsufan, if you think that you can climb the fence around Area 51 be my guest. Others have tried it only to wind up with a gun in their face and being escorted out of the area by military police. But hey, give it a try and let us know how it goes.
I have a problem with anyone who breaks the law. I don’t like people who exceed the speed limit (they are set for a reason), cheat on their taxes, do drugs of any kind even those called “recreational” drugs, let their dogs crap on a neighbors lawn or even exceed a city’s decible level with their boom boxes. You see, I believe that laws are made, not to be broken, but for the common good. Just call me a throw back to Jeffersonian times. But I also believe in respect for others and their property. That is obviously lacking in the current crop of immigrants that have cause 25 million tons of trash to be left behind in our national parks like Pipe Creek.
But what about those who have been here for the last 20 years, you ask. If they really want to be American citizens, if they really desire to stay, then they should be willing to return to their nation of origin and do the paper work in the proper way, just as the thousands who are currently waiting in their native lands to be given admittance to the U.S. But what about their families, you ask. That is their problem. I am tired of people having children they cannot afford and expecting me to foot the bill. I think one of the greatest crimes against America was the “Great Society” scam of LBJ’s. It did not work and it will not work. New Orleans was a example of how welfare fails Americans. But they will have to pay fines, you say. Not after the ACLU gets a hold of it. They will be taking the federal government to court saying that these people are too poor to pay the fines and that to make them do so is discrimination. But they supply cheap labor that we need, you say. Well, what happens in two years when the minimum wage is $7.75 and they start suing employers for the higher wage now that they are legal and the government has agree to funish them lawyers? I can tell you what will happen when the newly “minted” legals start suing employers; they will not get hired in the first place. Then that creates a situation down the road where we have another 20 million people on welfare and the current tax base cannot support the cost.
This bill that lost in the Senate only addressed the immediate legalization of millions who sneaked into our nation uninvited. It did nothing to take care of the very problems it would create down the road. We elect legislators to solve problems, current and future, not create more of them which has been the case with every immigration law enacted since Kennedy pushed his first bill through in 1965. And the fact that our borders are still wide open, with those Texas ranchers I think you mentioned that are finding Muslim prayer rugs on their ranches, is also a travesty. As well as a deriliction of duty from our government.
I know you don’t agree with me. That is fine. But you need to stand back and try to look at the problems this bill created, not the ones it solved. You don’t eliminate murder by legalizing murder. You don’t stop drug abuse by legalizing drugs.
I have been called a racist, bigot, heartless, cold hearted and a few other names like the one I was called by Terrye. But yet, not one of you can tell me what my race or heritage is or what my last name is.
I have tried to apply common sense, not emotion, to my opinion on immigration. And I have asked the question that all Senator’s should have asked “how does this bill benefits Americans”? That after all, is the purpose of our government, to act in our best interest, not in the best interest of the citizens of another nation.
BigL- I have a question about your contention that Bush cannot violate a congressional law. Why not? Congress and Presidents do it all the time.
President Bush could, and should, think and act like a General Patton class leader would think and act in a similar situation. Declare a national security emergency, issue an executive order to build the fence that was approved last year, secure the border with the National Guard or other armed forces as necessary and transfer whatever funds are necessary from any and all other funds available to the administration. Simply ignore any and all objections, court orders etc. until the border is secure and the national security threat is declared to be corrected once the border patrol is capable of taking over. In six months this Mexican border security problem would be solved and the courts could play with this for years to come. Mean while, the flood will be stopped and we can get on with the balance of the immigration issues, one at a time, and take back congress in 2008. I would love to see the Democrats sue and campaign to remove a secure fence at the Mexican border this close to the 2008 elections.
Also, your contention that a more likely scenario would be that a terrorist would come across the Canadian border instead fails to recognize there is no law I know of that requires President Bush to build a border fence at that location. There is one for the Mexican border and BigL that is quite a big difference.
Terrye-“And this stuff about Bush making the fence a priority. Do people have any idea how our government works? I mean really? Any at all? Congress wrote the bill, there is a bid process, there are environmental impact studies, they have to work with the locals, allocate the money”.
Please review my comments to BigL above. We need a strong leader that can get the job done NOW and worry about the incidentals later. President Roosevelt did just that during WWII.
RLQretired, the problem of illegal immigration has been totally ignored for the last 21 years. By all administrations. But our days of bliss ended on September 11, 2001. We learned that we are no longer divided by oceans that protect our homeland. We knew that we had those among us that want us dead. National security should have been #1 priority for any president, not just idle talk about how we need to legalize those who have come here without our permission.
But I am afraid that we will not wake the sleeping giant until we have another 9-11. And if it is learned that the ones who came here and killed us, overstayed their visas or came here illegally, Katie bar the door.
“Retire will you please stop arguing with Bigbluesports fan logic does not apply to him.”
Thanks Bloodyspartan.
“YOU and I know walls work Are they perfect No what it is. But they do work and that is his problem and others like him”
So this Fence is now WALL lol.
I would be nice if the FENCEbots could be a tad patience as we get this Virtual Fence that Boeing isdesigning up and running. It would be so much better and in the end faster to invest resources as to that. Plus it could be used on Our Northern Border too. But what do I and as you say “others Like him” know
“Then you will admit that your original thesis, that Hoover caused a massive change in the black republican vote changing to Dims in the south because of his poor performance in the flood is what caused FDR to win the election. You are now admitting that there WAS NO shift in the south, that in fact it wasn’t even possible.
So why don’t you just start back at square one and admit you were just attempting to blow smoke to make a point that would score with host. Better luck next time”
Good Grief. What was happening to Southern Registration in these south States is not hwat is important. They could not for the most part vote. As I have pointed out as to these States we also a part of the Great Migration where voting rights were much better for blacks. Blacks were not voting in great numbers for President of any Party in Mississippi because most could not vote period
“immigration hypochondriacs”……”prick”……”fencebots”…….
Will it never end?
“Why not? Congress and Presidents do it all the time.”
RLQretired what Law is the President or in that matter Congress is ignoring at this time
I don’t think we should let congress just drop the immigration thing.
They need their feet held to the fire.
Here is what I would do:
Build the wall, even militarize it. Its not to keep out workers, but to keep out terrorist and drug people. This is diametrically opposite to the Berlin Wall.
Create tamper proof IDs, enough to supply the needs of those companies that say they ‘need’ those workers, these would be of limited duration, but should have some sort of path to citizenship also.
Make them available in Mexico and in Canada, and issue them to anyone who passes a legitimate background check, and give preference to those that had been working in the US.
Enforce the ban on companies who hire illegal’s.
After six months jail, fine, and deport any illegal’s picked up, this would give some time for those here to get their IDs.
Don’t go after everyone, just those picked up, kind of like the highway patrol picks up speeders. They don’t try to catch everyone, just those they see. Anyone picked up for a crime would serve their time for the crime, plus the jail, fine and deportation of any other illegal found.
Any official not complying with the law would be fined and send to jail on felony charges also.
I am sorry Aj but this doesn’t track with reality. If this were the case then there should have been 70 plus senators voting for this. Point to anytime in the last 15 years that congress’ approval rating was much better.
Anyone with an ounce of common sense knows that the vast majority of hispanics are voting for democrats and that wasn’t going to change. Those of you that thought all these immigrants were going to be republican voters need to take off the rose colored glasses. That however wasn’t the point, the point is that there was no border security in this bill and that is why it has died…
“Let me remind you, you’re now saying they couldn’t have done that because they couldn’t vote Dimmicrat in the south. We were specifically talking about the vote in the south, remember. ”
Ok let me lay this out for you
Blacks were for obvious reason Republicans
Blacks Remained Republicans even in the South despite the fact that Federal Govt even when it was under Repuiblican Control did not have great track records of protecting Black Civil rights in the decades that followed.
IN the 20’s Blacks were still mainly Republicans with some voices expressing the need to expand influence in both parties.
The Great Migration occurs and millions of Blacks go North where their voting rights opportunities are better for the most part
THe 27 Flood comes and Herbert Hoover who had organizational experience in these type of things takes control of the relief effort
The black community is not treated well, horrible relief camps, people hekd at gunpoint because farmers feared they would have no workers. This is before the great advances in Agricultural Machinary
The media is kept of of these but word leaks out to black leaders around the nation and to papers.
Hoover makes a deal that there will be significant reforms if he gets their support.
Hoover is perceived and actually did not keep these promisies thus causing a huge major rift between Balck leaders and those that owned the Black media.
That rift never healed and in fact got worse as time went by
Black leadership that felt cheated from Republican leadership in the past as Hoover as a the final nail in the Coffin started making alliance with Democrats up North. The Civil Rights movement and the Black leadership in the North was largely Democrat
The fact is that this vote like any ther vote would have naturally had gone some in the Democrat column. Blacks like every ones else back then had different ideas as to Foreign policy, economic policy, etc etc.
However, what happened in the the late 20’s turned out to be a something the Party never could recover from. It was the final seed of distrust that caused a rupture that did not heal and took on a force of its own and got rolling in the forces of history
Walls work because you say so. Can’t argue with that logic
For you people that think walls don’t work. What the hell do you hold the roof of your house up with?
BigLsuGuy, you can’t even keep you story straight.
“Good Grief. What was happening to Southern Registration in these south States is not hwat is important. ”
Then why did you start out with the proposition that the black Republicans in the south changing over from the Republican party and voting dimmicrat and electing FDR in 1932 and had been dimmicrat every since. and now it’s not important. Then why did you make a point of it?
Your whole deal was all this crap about why the blacks were Repub but went dim and elected FDR in 32 and are still dims, and them switching sides WASN”T what your story was about? Geez,
maybe you really don’t know what fences are for.
Blacks were for obvious reason Republicans
Didn’t you just say that blacks didn’t belong to parties because they couldn’t vote? did you or did you not say that?
So, your great hypothesis boils down to:
Blacks in the south didn’t like Hoover starting AFTER he was elected pres, so they switched and voted (even tho you said they couldn’t vote) for FDR in ‘32.
Supply me any numbers from anywhere that show a big change (of the scale that would effect a presidential election) in black registration between ‘28 and ‘32 from Repub to Dim and that it was significant in the election of FDR and I’ll believe you. I’m going to say that I could find that data for the change between 32 and 36, but not prior to 32. I have a strange feeling you’re gonna try to distract me again.
FE,
So, if walls work in one application, they must work in all.
That’s been the trouble with your side from the beginning. Simple minded solutions to complex problems and dumbed down cliches (”secure the border first,” “invasions” and “criminals.”).
You folks need to learn about multi-tasking and proportionality. The right solution for the problem.
BigL-Try this little bit of history for starters. http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=14564
A quote from the article; “We all know about the Loral Corp.’s transfer of technology that permitted the criminal regime in Beijing to better target U.S. cities with nuclear weapons. I believe the Rosenbergs were executed for a crime similar in nature, but one which actually left our civilian population far less vulnerable”.
President Clinton covered this treasonous transfer of our most secret technology by an executive order, after the fact, if my memory is correct and this technology not only fixed China’s launching problem, it gave them the technology to put mutiple warheads on their missles. Call this what you will but I call it criminal. Thats one heck of a lot more serious that building 800 miles of security fence to keep the terrorists out.
How about the Chinese campaign contributions to Clinton, right in the whitehouse, if thats not enough for you.
The Truth Behind the Immigration Bill!!
Everyone in the United States has seen and understands the problems posed by illegal immigration. The people in this country in poll after poll want our border protected, yet our elected officials continue to do nothing. Haven’t you ever wondered why this never seems to get fixed? The reason lies in the creation of the Federal Reserve Banking System.
Meyer Amschel Rothschild, the man who founded the Rothschild empire, once said very memorably, “Give me control of a nation’s currency and I care not who makes the laws.”
That quote explains why our elected officials can do nothing to protect our borders and continue to push the current Immigration Bill.
Here is why:
“America now depends on more and more debt creation to drive a given dollar increase of GDP – - called Debt Productivity. Like a druggie, we need more debt each year than the year before. Additionally, as reported in the International Trade Report, the explosion of debt has generated consumption so far beyond the nation’s means (own production and savings) that soaring imports created record trade deficits – - threatening economic independence and national security. It is clear GDP has been driven by more and more debt (instead of production and savings) and this debt explosion was facilitated by centrally planned interest rates. Such rates now are at record lows and there does not appear anywhere for the Federal Reserve to go from here to further lower interest rates to drive even more debt creation to keep the debt-economy growing.”
The financial sector’s debt ratio zoomed from 5% of the economy’s national income in 1957 to 135% of today’s economy – a debt ratio growth rate 27 times faster than general economic growth – and, pointing upward faster and faster.
Household debt (today at 122% debt ratio, or $12.1 trillion) – from 43% of national income to today’s 122% debt ratio, nearly three times the prior ratio – meaning it, too, has increased much faster than general growth of the economy.
The fact household debt ratios have reached historic highs during the so-called boom years of the 1990s proves that the economy was more driven by debt than anything else and households have excessive debt instead of reduced debt at end of an expansion period.
Household debt is primarily made up of mortgage debt and credit (credit cards, auto loans, etc.). In 2006 household debt increased 9% over the prior year to $12.8 trillion, incl. $9.7 trillion mortgage debt and $2.4 trillion credit debt. Today’s household debt ratio of 122% soared above the past with the debt ratio more than double that of 1985.”
If we look back to 1986, we will find the last Amnesty Bill and since then, the debt ratio has more then doubled which had sustained the economy being driven by debt. To keep this ponzi scheme going, the Federal Reserve needs to create more debt. They knew this would be true back in 1986 which is why the border has been and continues to be left open.
Think about it, the people of this country were fed a load of bull in 1986. Border enforcement has gotten worse, not better. If the border would have been enforced in 1986, then how could the Federal Reserve create new debtors in 2007? We were all duped again in 2000 when Bush promised as a campaign promise to protect the border if he got elected. After he was elected and even after 911, the border remains unprotected. The will of the people is being thwarted by those who really run the country, the Federal Reserve.
This is the reason Bank of America now issues credit cards to illegal aliens, even with no SSN, and is the reason the Federal Reserve created ” Directo a México” allowing illegal immigrants to open bank accounts and send money to Mexico.
The United States of America, that used to be the biggest creditor on earth is now the biggest international debtor with exploding trade deficits.
Thus, the only way to beat the illegal immigration problem is to fix the economic problem by finally addressing our Federal Reserve Banking System which was created in violation of The Constitution of the United States. Fix this problem, and The United States of America will once again be for the people and run by the people as initially intended by our founders.
Don’t expect the Federal Reserve to give up this fight in any way. Watch in disbelief as just enough of our elected officials who voted against the Immigration Bill are voted out of office in 2008 to make it pass soon after. Then prepare yourself for the North American Union that follows to once again create more debt to keep the debt economy growing.
SBD
blus:
It is not complicated, they just want to show their asses and argue the point for the hell of it.
Blacks moved north where they could vote and they began to go to the Democrats because the Republicans had let them down so many times and because they wanted to put pressure on the Democrats. Meanwhile, the Democrats wanted that vote in the north and they began to work at gaining black support. That in turn enraged the southern Democrats and the shift began there as well.
Even in Truman’s time there was talk of the black vote. In fact some white southerners said that was why they integrated the military, to get the black vote.
Why some people feel the need to argue with historical fact is beyond me. I guess they just can not face the truth.
For instance, I keep hearing how Bush was not tough enough on certain issues and yet there is a segment of the right who seems bound and determined to weaken him and render him powerless. After which they bitch even more because he is not more forceful. Go figure.
You see, if you want to know how clueless the hardliners are, all you have to do is read this thread. On one hand they say they want to secure the border first and then they will discuss the rest of the issues. On the other hand they say they will never support the rest of the issues, thereby making it obvious why they keep failing to pass any kind of meaningful reform.
The Democrats control the House and the Senate and they are going to require that they get something they want as well. If the babies on the right can not understand that and want to take their marbles and go home, fine, but then they should not pretend they are serious about making policy. They just want their way and screw everyone else.
And no, Bush can not go down there like Patton and just slap up a wall. Patton would not have been able to fight the Battle of the Bulge is the Congress had not paid for the bullets.
I mean really, people just do not have a clue. This is a government project, and that means red tape.
Besides that big projects take a long time anymore. They have not built anything where the WTC was yet, and that is mostly private money.
Imagine how much more complicated it gets when you have to deal with state, local and federal government regulations.
In fact another example of the Republican party betraying the southern blacks would be the Hayes Compromise when Republican Rutherford Hayes agreed to remove northern troops from the south in return for a release of their electoral votes. This brought about an end to Reconstruction and the end to several Republican governments in southern states. A lot of blacks who held office were run from office and many were murdered as the “Redeemers” took over.
It was not a proud moment for the Republican party or the country for that matter.
It would be almost a century before southern blacks would regain the rights they had between 1865 and 1876. I have often wondered if they had not been sent back to the quarters and if their assimilation into the rest of society had been allowed to continue without this travesty, how different things might be today.
TERRYE wrote: And this stuff about Bush making the fence a priority. Do people have any idea how our government works? I mean really? Any at all? Congress wrote the bill, there is a bid process, there are environmental impact studies, they have to work with the locals, allocate the money.
If these were the reasons for the delay in the border fence, then you would be correct. But sadly, they are not!!
President Bush signed the Border Fence Bill in October 2006 which called for more than 700 miles of double-layer fencing spread across 854 of the 1,952 miles of border between Brownsville and San Diego.
Instead of building the fence as stated in the bill and as written by congress, the President and Homeland Security signed a contract with Boeing to build a “virtual fence” that as of last week, didn’t even work.
The President and Homeland Security have decided to build 370 miles of fencing at the border and create a “virtual” fence of electronic surveillance for the rest.
That is not what the bill said and is not what Congress passed, so yes Bush is to blame for the Border Fence not being constructed. A fence stops traffic, a camera will take their picture.
SBD
Macker.
“So, if walls work in one application, they must work in all.”
Well, let’t ask the opposite. So, if walls don’t work in one application, they won’t work in any?
Prisons work on the principle of keeping people in and keeping people out. I’m guessing the successs rate is above 99.5%.
You didn’t say if you rely on walls of your house or not?
Terrye, I’m quoting the following statement, by you, for one specific reason:
“Why some people feel the need to argue with historical fact is beyond me. ”
If that statement is not the stupidest, most ignorant statement I have ever read, it certainly ranks right there at the top.
Do you not know that “historical fact” depends on whose HIStory it is.
I’m sure your write up of the HIStory of the recent immigration bill in the Senate would not resemble my write up of the same event.
In BigLsu’s case, he himself started out with one version of the history of an event and he himself totally destroyed his own argument.
If you recall, he started by saying the Blacks in the south switched parties and has ended up saying they weren’t even allowed in the parties. how the hell can you switch from one party to the other and never be a member of either. Go ahead and jump into something again that you don’t have a clue about, as this matter and continue to look like a clueless apple polisher.
FE,
Of course, my walls support my roof and provide an enclosure, but not a secure one, so I also have an electronic “virtual” one.
I believe a “virtual fence” is the best solution, along with worker ID’s and immigrant data bases.
The “virtual fence” will pinpoint the breach locations and permit border patrol to interdict.