Jul 01 2007
GOP Still Destroying Itself
The Immigration debacle is not over. The purity wars are in full bloom as the Amnesty Hypochondriacs move to make sure they will never come close to seeing real reform. In fact, some fools are calling for Sen Martinez to be defeated or recalled (which will, of course, leave Florida with TWO Democrat Senators).
That last point has the talk of “Recall†in Martinez’s district talking loudly. There is even a website collecting signatures.
The truth is the GOP is damaged goods and many people are walking away. And while some are trying to stay on, they cannot hide their feelings:
But the bill’s demise may have greatly damaged the party’s ability to meet its enduring goal of attracting a large percentage of the growing number of Hispanic voters — thousands of whom are ostensibly in line with the party on a host of other issues, said many Republican lawmakers, consultants and Hispanic voters.
“There may be some short-term gain from this,†said Linda Chavez, who served in the Reagan administration and is now chairwoman of the Center for Equal Opportunity, a conservative public policy group. “But in the long term, it is disastrous for the Republican Party.â€
…
“I think it’s bloody for the Republicans,†said Antonio Gonzalez, president of the William C. Velasquez Institute, a Latino-oriented research and policy organization with offices in San Antonio and Los Angeles. “The Democrats said pro-immigrant stuff, and even if they didn’t support it, it was because they said it wasn’t good enough. The Republicans said anti-immigrant stuff and so now they are going to get killed with this.â€
It is a view that many Republicans share. Mr. McCain, who in May told Republicans that “the Hispanic vote is turning against us in very large numbers,†expressed similar thoughts privately this week, aides said.
In an interview on Friday, Mr. Martinez, who is chairman of the national Republican Party, called the bill’s defeat “a bipartisan failure.†To win favor with Hispanics in the future, “We’ve got our work cut out for us,†he said. “I consider it serious.â€
Abel Maldonado, a prominent Hispanic Republican in the California State Senate, said he felt that both parties were damaged, but that “It hurts the Republican party a little bit more in terms of bringing more minorities into the party.â€
I could go over to rightwing websites and find a host of hate being spewed at Chavez, but what’s the point? The GOP tolerates the haters and relies on them. But what is the point?There will be no new immigration legistlation for years to come, and the GOP will also be in the minority for years to come. So what is someone to do if they want action on this or any other issue? Well, the GOP is not going to be the place to look for years to come – that much is for sure.
Republicans have showed signs of making clear inroads in recent years among Hispanic voters. President Bush took roughly 40 percent of the Hispanic vote in 2004, and Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger of California won roughly the same percentage of Hispanic voters in his state in his re-election in 2006 — a strong showing for any Republican candidate here.
But the party saw only about 25 percent of Hispanic voters come its way in the midterm elections last year, an alarming trend for the Republicans looking at 2008. Many Republicans fear that loss of essentially half their market share, though they were not willing to say so on the record.
Say adios to the GOP as a major political voice in 2008. Even in the insiders know the truth they are afraid to say in public. More here.
CP
The poll numbers may have varied in magnitude but the same trends were consistent for both Rasmussen and Gallup.
Are you saying now that the two largest polling organizations in the country are BOTH wrong.
Reader–
kindly take your obnoxious hahaha and shove it.
“Oh, boy, then we can watch them pouring over the border. That really doesn’t help. ”
smill1953 as I has been pointed out More Border agents have been hired and more are on the way. One thing the people that opposed the bill did was to act like nothing was being done on the border , that had not been improvement, nor that things were in the pipeline to make it better.
It really is a shame this is happening because it is a big slap in the face to those that doing great work in making this happen.
THe fact is something like I described makes sense. In effect it can br used to send manpower where it is needed instead of agents being stationed where no crossing are happening. The border is crossing and where it happens is fluid. It also can be used on our Canadian border if needed.
However as I have siad the Wrokplace verfication was the first big real step. That was more important than hundreds of mile of fence
THe problem is this. I think we are all against illegal immigration. But when the Cure in many ways is worse than the disease something is worng. One does not cure cut off your hand to get rid of a rash
The Facts are these
We need these workers and more to the point we need a good many of the 12 million here. THe Economy and the and their human capital has been absorbed and is producing effects for the economy. It is not so much a issue of jobs Americans will not do but Jobs there are no Americans for. Also the use of this labor supplies jobs for Americans. Would you like some of these business to close down and go to where the labor is. I thought people didnt like these companies doing that.
Again at when is the cure of deportation/Attrition more harmful than the disease
I keep pointing out that many of these people are of mixed legal status. THere 3.1 million children that are Americans that would be directly affected. Often I hear who cares. However what is the social cost and in fact direct economic cost of Children with homes or having their economic situation worsen. #.q million is quite a bit. If we wish to look at it hard cold numbers what will be the final Govt bill for this seperation. I suspect it will manifest itself in thousands of way
Again is the Cure we proposing worse than the disease.
Americans benefit greatly in this new Global market. In fact our actions have effects on other peoples that we have no idea of. But the problem is that this Flow of Capitol has not had a complimentary change in practices that allow the labor to easily come to it assistance
THis 12 million you see is a product of a Economic/immigration policy that was out of step with our economic needs.
That is one reason why the 12 million needed to be dealt with in a rational way. However people are so emotionally invested in deportation/attrition they fail to see the economic and social cost of soing so. THe entire argument has been framed in how illegals and really immigration is bad and just lets look at the negative effects. They fail to give us the whole picture
What is amazing is that we ourselves are to blame in many ways. You just can’t abort a over a million of your citizens a year and quit breeding and it not have effects.
“Reader–
kindly take your obnoxious hahaha and shove it.
Left by smill1953 on July 1st, 2007”
HA HA HA. Settle down, son.
biglsu:
It is not just abortion, people simply are not having babies like they used to. A friend of mine has two daughters, one is 28 and the other is 33. And they have one child between them. And they are not that unusual either, they just don’t want kids. When the babyboomers retire in the not so distant future this country is going to need people paying into that system, and that will only get worse.
They also fail to comprehend the fact that this country is full of lawyers and just rounding people up and deporting them all is not going to happen. Neither is taking rights away from American citizens because they are anchor babies. I can imagine that going all the way to the Supreme Court.
But the truth is that the ACLU, the AFL CIO, La Raza as well as Pat Buchanan, the KKK and conservative radio talk show hosts were against the bill.
The extremes simply overwhelmed the process.
DeMint and Dorgan can come together to kill a bill a lot easier than they can come together to create a alternative. Not a lot of common ground there.
And if they take out Martinez it will almost certainly be a Democrat who wins, the kind of Republicans these folks run almost always get beat. That is what they do not understand. Maybe they could get Santorum to move to Florida and he could run. yeah, that would work. And then ofcourse George Allen is available.
And why recall someone for supporting a bill? The man has a right to do what he thinks is right, he should not be recalled for that. It is not a crime.
Terrye
Now you are really getting into stretching logic here.
You are supporting poorly structured immigration legislation because it would help prop up another set of social security ponzi scheme poor structured legislation.
Also remember the initial social security coverage has been expanded over the years way beyond the original target group it was enacted for.
There are many now covered by it that were never in the original legislation way back when.
Hey my household is an example of it.
I can’t fight it , I can’t change it , I can’t reject it because it is mandated in the law.
I have a stepson who has cerebal palsey. I have more than enough capability to take care of his every need but the government mandates under their programs that this child who has been this way from birth still gets a check each month for a system he has never paid into and because of his fathers earning power (the birth dad) my stepson draws more each month than some working people in my area.
My wife sat down one time at the computer an worked up a spreadsheet on my stepson’s medical bills since day one and the bottom line is that a combination of medicare/medicaid just for the medical bills have paid out over 3.4 million dollars for surgery’s he has had.
BigLSU, I wish you would be a little more honest and forthright about your opinions. The fact is, from what I have seen of your postings, that you are completely in support of a no borders polic;y. While you try to dance around that, you constantly make excuses for those who violate our border, but you consistently say that they should be allowed to get away with that with some minor punishment. A punishment that you and I both know is never going to happen. Do you have any idea of how damned transparrent you are? I mean really, who the hell do you think your kidding? You have one constant and consistent theme in all of your postings here, ignore the law and let all of them in. Your I don’t know for sure what your motivations are, but PULLLLEEEEZZZZZEEEEE, stop hiding behind the lords robe! What a crock! You constantly try to put the church above the law in this and that don’t work! Jesus never said, well, if enough people break the law,then we shouldn’t have the law anymore.. Do you REALLY want to try to tell me that there is no consideration of the impact this immigration has on the catholic church? REALLY, HONESTLY????? Did it ever occur to you that maybe the good of the United States of America should come over your church? Believe me, there are plenty of good churchs in the US that don’t need to destroy the fabric of the nation to get more followers. Your dishonesty is blatant and disgusting.
Please Terrye
Explain to me how with the way the system is structured just how many dedicated lettuce pickers and how many wizards of the weedeaters it will take to pay into the system if they even go beyond their own draw down of the system to make the books balance?
I suggest simply you cant.
To much of this issue has been tugging at the heartstrings oh gee it would be the humane and good thing to do as far as immigration, but without the looking down the road analysis of the impacts.
We have the known Kennedy legacy of one goof after another and now a bill that was presented and molded outside of all the normal channels that was a crap shoot almost as effective as shooting clay pigeons blindfolded.
There has always been the opportunity for anybody (or party) to carve out the enforcement provisions of this bill (the border provisions, and the work place provisions) and make a new bill. It would completely shift the momentum and tone of the bill in such a way that it would most likely pass . It would be the perfect political judo move….and it would entirely flip this in favor of those who stuck to their guns and defeated this bill. It would also shut up all those suggesting that they come up with their “own” bill…and probably make a few run for the door to realize that to even argue against the bill would be aruging against the very provisions they just proposed and suggested be passed!
The question is…is anybody gonna step up and do it? Hahahahaha. Things are going to get real interesting around here…I can just feel it.
“wish you would be a little more honest and forthright about your opinions”
I am pretty honest about my what I post here. I have been thinking about this issue for two years now.
“The fact is, from what I have seen of your postings, that you are completely in support of a no borders polic;y.”
No I am not for open borders. I think that is a extremist concept on both sides of the political spectrum
“you constantly make excuses for those who violate our border, but you consistently say that they should be allowed to get away with that with some minor punishment”
I think the punishiment is just. We have benefited from their labors and lot of our own countrymen broke the law. For a illegal to get hired we have someone that is hiring them. One must look at the total picture when deciding Justice is. I see many of these violations as venial some see them as mortal.
“A punishment that you and I both know is never going to happen”
I don’t know what you are basing that on. It seems like you assume that in some sort of default cynic mode. My whole theory is that we are a political time where there will enormous politcal pressure to boot ot enforce those provisions. So no, I do not take the position that they will not be enforced
” Do you have any idea of how damned transparrent you are? I mean really, who the hell do you think your kidding?”
Really no hidden agenda here. I say what I mean and what I believe. Nothing being hidden here
“You have one constant and consistent theme in all of your postings here, ignore the law and let all of them in.”
I am not sure what you mean by let all of them in. THey are laready in. Also since you have been following mys postings I have been quite clear that I figured millions would not make the cut and then have to return. Therefore even those that were here many would have to leave and I am fine with that and support that fully
“PULLLLEEEEZZZZZEEEEE, stop hiding behind the lords robe! What a crock! You constantly try to put the church above the law in this and that don’t work”
We are not slaves and servants to provisions of the Law that if enforced would make no sense and in fact produce more ill effects than good. THere is much to balance here. Again in my view under proposed legislation millions would be not make the cut
“Jesus never said, well, if enough people break the law,then we shouldn’t have the law anymore.. Do you REALLY want to try to tell me that there is no consideration of the impact this immigration has on the catholic church? REALLY, HONESTLY????? Did it ever occur to you that maybe the good of the United States of America should come over your church? Believe me, there are plenty of good churchs in the US that don’t need to destroy the fabric of the nation to get more followers. Your dishonesty is blatant and disgusting. ”
Good Greif that rant is rich. First, if I wanted to keep these people Catholic I would fight to keep them down here. Many Evanglicals will come out of this immigration wave. In fact they are the fastest grwoth in Evangelical circles. Also I might add this immigration wave is coming at the worst time for the Catholic Church in AMerica because we are really just starting to regain our footing. Further, these immigratns that are Catholic tend to have a more “Pentecostal bent” and that of creates its own problems and challenges as we incorporate them into our faith communities. So no believe it or not filling the pews with new members is not at the front of my mind. It might shock you but the most mainline Churches and many evangelical Churches supported comprehensive immigration reform. THe head guy on this issue at the Southern Baptist Church was favorable toward this. Again it is very easy to be a cynic. I am just trying to live out the teachings of Christ and yes they inform me on issues like Abortion. stem cell, gay marriage laws, and yes immigration. The comprehenisve immigration bill I thought fit Christian teaching very well and helped inform by decision among many of other reason.
Pius the Xii said “the émigré Holy Family of Nazareth, fleeing into Egypt, is the archetype of every refugee family. Jesus, Mary and Joseph, living in exile in Egypt to escape the fury of an evil king, are, for all times and all places, the models and protectors of every migrant, alien and refugee of whatever kind who, whether compelled by fear of persecution or by want, is forced to leave his native land, his beloved parents and relatives, his close friends, and to seek a foreign soil†(Exsul Familia Nazarethena, Apostolic Exhortation, Pius XII, August 1952).
Amen
The teaching of the Church is not one sided here. It teaching accords the States rights and trys to inform us as immigration laws.
That being said
Our Lady of Guadalupe, the patroness of the Americas, pray for us as we consider immigration reform.
Did any of you see the Skull, Micheal Chertoff on Fox News Sunday? Chris Wallace, a democrat, ask Chertoff, “Well, since the bill did not pass and it seems the nation is clamoring for enforcement of the border, are you going to back the 4.4 billion funding package to build the fence and enforce the border?” Chertoffs answer was a real big tap dancing NO! That just proves what I said all along, the enforcement parts of the bill were a big damned LIE all along! And Chertoff proves me right! And by the way, even Chertoff again added that this money was only to come from the fines paid by illegals, what kind of nitwit thinks that a person earning about ten K a year could possibly pay a five K fine? What a damnable lie all of this was!
“what kind of nitwit thinks that a person earning about ten K a year could possibly pay a five K fine?”
First they would have time to get the funds together. Second, many are paying 5000 to people to get them across the border now, third I suspect many employers would pay this or a portion of it to keep people they trained.
Oh and alot of pople are making more than 10,000 a year
BIGLSU, I don’t buy a word of it. You’re tap dancing. The fact is that you are in total support of any mexican who can come across the border being legalized and all of their family coming with them. Are you really trying to deny that. You said, “Also since you have been following mys postings I have been quite clear that I figured millions would not make the cut and then have to return.” Do you really think that would happen? I think you know it wouldn’t. If you can’t see that we have a government that is not willing to enforce these laws, then you are being willfully blind.
And by the way, nobody here is “escaping the fury of an evil king,” they are simply escaping the competition of their own corrupt society to prey on easier pickings across the border, not quite biblical.
There is absolutely nothing about the church that shocks me, because the church, is made up of people. People are infamousley imperfect. That whole crap about trying to impose the perfection of Christ on imperfect people has never worked and will never work. It’s a sham and you cannot apply it to every political cause you wish to promote in order to make it, “of god”.
“The fact is that you are in total support of any mexican who can come across the border being legalized and all of their family coming with them. Are you really trying to deny that.”
Bikerken ,I do not support that. In fact I have been quite clear that I we should have immigrations standards and especially guest worker provisions tied to something like the Federal reserve does. That is issue visas for the needs of the American economy and use Economic Forecasting date and do this on a Quarterly basis at the very least.
Also, a issue that has been entorely ignored is the need for High Tech labor. I understand why that is. While FAIR , NUMbERSUSA
are dazzling eveyone with the illegal alien side show they are fighting expanding visas for High Tech workers. I am fighting that battle too. I am also for the merit system to make our immigration balanced and good for this country
“There is absolutely nothing about the church that shocks me, because the church, is made up of people. People are infamousley imperfect. That whole crap about trying to impose the perfection of Christ on imperfect people has never worked and will never work. It’s a sham and you cannot apply it to every political cause you wish to promote in order to make it, “of godâ€. ”
Immigration and migration is nothing new to the Christian Church. Yes the Church is imperfect. THere is a mystery of what Ratiznger called this “unholy holliness”. But she is the instrument of Christ and Foundation and pillar of truth set up bu the Lord so that is our mandate. We must keep on trucking despite our imperfections.
As to politcs, again the Church teaching informs me. Immigration issues and this particular immigration problem we face bring in a ton of issues that revelant. So yes God is involved
“Are you saying now that the two largest polling organizations in the country are BOTH wrong.”
I am saying that there is no such thing as a “trend” one week after an event. Over the long term, say the last 5 years, Republican party identification has been dropping, but not as bad as Democrats, actually. The greatest increase has been in people not declaring any party affiliation.
If things turn around in Iraq significantly, as they appear to be, it could swamp the immigration issue.
Actually, it appears that global terrorism is being hammered pretty hard. The brits are rolling up one network now and Algeria has really put the hammer on AQ as has Lebanon lately.
The focus is going to be on Pakistan and Iran soon. But if Iraq sees a major turn around, the Republicans could reap a good deal from it.
BUT the Democrats are already laying the groundwork for their takeover of govt by increasing the delays of conformations of Bush appointees. They are creating as many open slots as possible so a Democrat President can stack the deck quickly.
Fine, guys go after the Catholics now. Tell me how many more people are you going to insult in your effort to make America more Anglo?
The Know Nothing really are back. I guess next we will be hearing how this is all a part of a Papal conspiracy.
No, I do not support open borders and I am not talking about heart strings either. I am talking about the economy and the tax base of several states and the ability of several businesses to stay here or be forced out of the country in search of labor or out of business all together. It is the down side to prosperity in some ways.
Back in the 90’s, before he found the hardliner God Fred Thompson was voting to bring in more foreign labor because we had a labor shortage here. We are in the same situation now. And what does Fred want to do? Who knows, he is too busy pandering to come up with a real policy.
I am saying that if they came out with a bill tomorrow that had a guest worker provision and tougher enforcement measures and reform measures for our legal immigration system I would support it. It does not go as far as I like, but it would be better than nothing and we need to do some things now. I have been around long enough to know that you do not always get everything you want.
But the hardliner on the other hand would prefer to maintain a status quo he says is intolerable rather than compromise with his fellow Americans on a bill that is not exactly what he wants. The fact that there is no indication that such a bill can pass is beside the point, he is not really serious about the issue anyway, he just likes using it for political purposes. Otherwise he would be making a greater effort to accomplish something positive, rather than just damaging his own party.
And btw, everytime you go feed yourself chances are some illegal somewhere along the line was part of that food chain.
Maybe all you hardliners should start raising gardens and milking your own cows and killing your own hogs in an effort to remain pure. You wouldn’t want to sully yourselves by rewarding a system that is using such criminals.