Aug 30 2007
Get the Facts Straight
Ok. So we still have some ignorant people trying to post comments. Heads up! Once again, if you had taken the time to read the arrest report you would find that the Larry Craig was charged with a misdemeanor and a gross misdemeanor. Neither of those equal felony. So CRAIG IS NOT A FELON
29 Responses to “Get the Facts Straight”
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So rather than an admitted felon, Mr. Craig is an admitted criminal . . . N’est ce pas?
sooth:
You sound positively homophobic. I think that the whole thing is stupid. Foot tapping etc.
BTW, I am not a Republican either but after years of listening to self righteous sanctimonious liberals yammer on about how those bad conservatives should just learn how to stay out of other people’s sex lives this whole thing is really amazing. I expect a lynch mob any minute.
I was pulled over speeding once and even though I did not think I was going as fast as the cop said I was I paid the fine rather than take a day off work and fight it in court. After all, it was my word against his and it was easier to just pay the fine.
That does not make me a serial killer.
And no one was having sex here. How did the frothing at the mouth crew manage to turn this bathroom into a San Francisco bath house?
Homophobic? What are you smoking? I don’t care who or what Mr. Craig romances . . . but the fact is, he pleaded guilty to a criminal charge . . . ergo . . . he IS a criminal.
As for blaming sanctimonious liberals . . . you think the undercover cop is a LIBERAL?? Mr. Craig is the one who rants and raves about family values, votes against gay rights, and then wiggles his fingers into the next stall and plays footsie with the undercover cop.
Skin crawl, Dude, the guy is a creep.
I paid the fine rather than take a day off work and fight it in court. After all, it was my word against his and it was easier to just pay the fine.
Yep. A very common thing for regular folks. I am not saying that this is what happened here but it makes as much sense (considering he was fighting the rum0rs for years). I do NOT consider a Senator as ‘common folk’ but I do sometimes wonder if Edwards might have something with his Two Americas when I read some of the comments. It’s as if some really do not understand what you said about just shutting up and paying up in the real world.
Ever paid a speeding ticket Sooth? That equals admitting guilt and being a criminal.
sooth:
Yes you do sound homophobic. For one thing, exactly what is the crime? Criminal charge?? Like being a litterbug is akin to mass murder or something? Is a traffic violation a criminal charge. If I go over the speed limit or fail to put on my seat belt am I Ted Bundy?
The whole thing is absurd, foot tapping. Nobody even touched anybody or said anything to anybody.
There are real criminals out there killing people, raping people, robbing people etc and here we are talking about Craig with his criminal foot tapping. silly.
Speaking of skin crawling what about all those women who swore Bill Clinton groped them? Is that cool or something?
Terrye, defending Craig is making you do contortions.
“Like being a litterbug is akin to mass murder or something?”
Well, if a politician made his career about going after the litterbugs, and then it turns out that he himself is a litterbug (and a particularly nasty one at that), then I’d say that raises the crime up a bit in terms of its significance. Mass murder, of course, was just your sad attempt at a strawman argument, so I’ll ignore that.
If I go over the speed limit or fail to put on my seat belt am I Ted Bundy?
No, you’re not Ted Bundy (enough with the strawman arguments already). What you are is a speeder. Which is fine. So am I. I’ve happily pleaded guilty to speeding, and if anyone asks me, I’m fine to tell them, “Yes, I have been caught speeding. I am okay with that.” Now, I have not made my career out of making life really hard for speeders. Moreover, I don’t think it’s such a bad crime.
However, Craig clearly agrees with me that being called a toilet trader is not easy to accept. Personally, if I were accused of that and if I didn’t do it, I would contest the charge. But that’s just me.
The whole thing is absurd, foot tapping. Nobody even touched anybody or said anything to anybody.
Wrong. Craig touched the cop’s foot, which as the cop knows, is the signal for toilet trading. Craig admitted to having done this, as you can hear in his audio testimony:
http://www.salon.com/ent/video_dog/politics/2007/08/30/craig_police/
No, nobody said anything to anybody. That’s not how toilet trading works.
There are real criminals out there killing people, raping people, robbing people etc and here we are talking about Craig with his criminal foot tapping.
I take it you either don’t have kids, or your partisan hackery trumps your desire to protect them. Either way, you should know that some of us would not want our kids (or even ourselves) walking into a public restroom to find two guys getting it on in a stall. Sorry, I’m not homophobic, but I don’t want to see that. That’s why our society has laws against that kind of thing (public heterosexual sex too). Don’t you think that law is worth enforcing? Or is it just worth enforcing when there are no republicans involved?
But, of course, this isn’t about enforcing any laws. That has already been done. Here’s what it’s about:
“Knowing Governor Mitt Romney is knowing someone who, first and foremost, has very strong family values. That is something I grew up with and believe in.”
-Larry Craig
Now, given that Craig claims that Romney (a presidential candidate) shares his values, and given that Craig’s values include having anonymous sex in public, this comment by Craig is very interesting. Sure, you don’t care, simply because it makes a republican look bad, but that’s why you’re a partisan hack rather than a real thinking American. Those of us who are incensed by staggering hypocrisy by our elected officials, regardless of their party (be it William Jefferson’s $90k in the freezer, Mark Foley’s oh-so-disgusted rhetoric against Clinton in the 90s, or David Vitter’s style of legislating morality while gratifying himself) find this kind of story certainly to be worth knowing about.
You don’t, I understand. But rather than struggle through redefining language or floating crazy legal theories, why not just disclose the fact that you want to defend Craig because he’s a republican? Sometimes, even in politics, you’ll still find that honesty is the best policy.
Speaking of skin crawling what about all those women who swore Bill Clinton groped them? Is that cool or something?
I’m not sure how that relates to Craig’s toilet trading activities. Please elaborate.
Actually, let me help you out, as you’re only going to try and backpedal. Let’s look at what you wrote:
Speaking of skin crawling what about all those women who swore Bill Clinton groped them? Is that cool or something?
Now, here’s what you need to decide before you continue posting about this topic. Either you support this creepy kind of behavior, or you condemn it. If you condemn it in Clinton, then you certainly need to condemn it with Craig. The differences between Clinton and Craig in this regard are:
They’re both elected officials, married with kids. To Clinton’s credit, he didn’t campaign against lechy guys while being one himself, unlike Craig.
What Craig did is against the statutory law, whereas the groping that Clinton did could be considered a suing offense.
Craig admitted to his crime, whereas with Clinton it’s all supposition apart from a few cases. (However, I have little doubt that Clinton did those things.)
Let me tell you how I deal with these things. I believe, from what I’ve read and heard on the subject, that Clinton used his power as president to get laid. Pretty sleazy, no? Let’s join hands and condemn him for that sleazy act (or series of them).
Okay, so now for Craig. He sat in a stall, tapped his feet, and eventually rubbed his foot up against the guy in the next stall. Then he rubbed his hand along the bottom of the stall. This is text-book toilet trader activity. Also pretty sleazy, right? Let’s join hands and…wait. You want to defend him? It’s no big deal, you say? We’re all homophobic for even finding it interesting that a GOP “family values” crusader is in fact a toilet trader? O…kay. I see you lack integrity.
See how that works?
Paul:
What a hateful little person you are.
My point about Clinton was in response to sooth’s assanine comment about skin crawling. A lot of things are skin crawling. Such as the intense, avid, over the top bug eyed glee with which the left has reacted to this.
Do you have one hand in your pants and the other on the key board? I ask because you seem to be getting awful worked up.
BTW Paul, I am not a Republican.
TERRYE said:
“What a hateful little person you are.”
He/she also said:
“Do you have one hand in your pants and the other on the key board? I ask because you seem to be getting awful worked up.”
I’ll let those two comments provide their own response. I never insulted you, but somehow I’m hateful and little, whereas I take it you’re loving and big. You can keep that standard of behavior for yourself. But I can address this point:
“Such as the intense, avid, over the top bug eyed glee with which the left has reacted to this.”
I’ll tell you about the glee we feel over this story. See, the republican crusade to legislate private behavior was always ill conceived. Not unlike the rule that priests can’t be married. In the end, human nature wins out against dogma, and you see what we get, with both the republicans and the priests. The more republicans get outed as toilet traders, pedophiles, adulterers, fornicators, etc, the sooner this whole “let’s legislate the behavior of consenting adults” nonsense will be discredited.
But none of this obscured the fact that you are unable to condemn Craig’s behavior, or even face the facts of it as are self-evident in the audio recording of his interrogation. If you’re not a republican, you’re doing a damn fine imitation. Besides, while I can certainly understand the plight of rats on sinking ships, before you jump overboard, you might want to change the link to your blog, on which you drool over Fred Thompson. That makes your “I’m not a republican” much like your fellow republican’s “I’m not a crook” statement.
What private crusade you idiot? I know Democrats rank and file who would think that gays are perverts. Are you really so brainwashed that you believe there is some plot to regulate your private behavior?
Well, if you feel that way then you should demand that these kinds of sting operations be brought to an end, after all whose business is it anyway?
So you want me to condemn Craig’s behavior? Fine I condemn him for tapping his foot and waving his fingers. Bad boy.
And I am not a Republican, I am an Independent. I was a Democrat for years but the loons on the left got to be too much for me. Ran me out of my own party.
How does Aj attract these people? Are they all soothie? Can’t be that many of them.
I think there is no question that Craig was soliciting sex in the men’s room. Why do I say that? because I have been in public restrooms in places like shopping malls, department stores, etc, anywhere where they don’t get a lot of traffic, where they WRITE THE INTRUCTIONS ON THE WALL!!!! Nobody has addressed this yet, but I would be willing to bet that the walls in that stall were covered with “gayfitti”. Gayfitti is the drawings of sex acts on the stall wall and writings such as, “meet me here at 11 for bj, tap foot five times” “Touch bottom of wall for bj”. This stuff has always angered me toward homosexuals because it is so disgustng. How could anyone have sex with someone they never even spoke a word to? The only requirement was that the other party was also willing. George Micheal ring a bell? That is so sick. The first time I encountered gayfitti was in the heads on the USS Midway. They even went to the point of cutting holes in the wall between the stalls! It didn’t take long for me to figure out that there were some heads on the ship that were gay hangouts and some weren’t. It made me think that either there were a heck of a lot more homosexuals in the Navy than I thought or that the few were extremely bold and active. So while I hate that homosexuals do this, I have to take a hard look at myself, I have had sex in a church during a wedding, a hospital emergency room, a K-Mart, and on top of the Pere Marquette Lighthouse in Lake Michigan in the middle of January. I’m sure we have all had similar experiences. C’mon now, don’t lie. So maybe I’m not one to talk, but I don’t find either one of those things as disgusting as hooking up with the next body who walks in the door of a urine smelling room. what is that bathroom thing with gay men???? I just don’t understand it.
Even if what Craig is accused of is true, and I think it probably is, what is the real offense here? He made a pass at someone. THATS IT! He made a pass at another man and not being responded to, he walked away. HMMMMM? Am I wrong here? Now while I will admit that it really pisses me off when I go into a public bathroom and encounter some fruitcake trying to make eye contact with some twisted sort of smile, it makes me want to kick his f**cking fruitcake ass because I have seen this before. GAY MEN CRUISE PUBLIC RESTROOMS! I am sure that most adult men know this. I have learned to just do my business and get out of there quickly before I get arrested for assault because the fact is, that this is just a case of another man making a pass at you. If I could go into womens restrooms, I might come off as some kind of freak too.
The only reason that I’m not for Larry Craig resigning, is that if he were a democrat, it would not even a topic of discussion. Nancy Pelosi makes special deals on the minimum wage laws that benefit the Samoan companys in her pocket, Harry Reid is up to his grey hair in corrupt land deals in Las Vegas, Diane Fienstien is cutting out pork to benefit her husbands company, William Jefferson is caught with $90,000 bribe money in his freezer, Gary Stubbs admits to having sex with a 16 year old page while in Europe and is re-elected six times, Barney Frank’s boyfriend is running a male whorehouse out of his basement, the Clintons are up to their teeth in campaign money coming from dubvious chinese sources since 1992 while the chinese mysteriously seem to obtain secret technology from us, Bill Clinton is accused of making passes at multiple employees of his state and the White House and raping one campaign worker, and none of these things are considered important enough for a democrat to resign let along even investigating it to begin with! Bob Beckel keeps frothing at the mouth saying, “This is what the republicans get for constantly preaching family values! Because that makes them hypocrites.” Well lets think about that for a second, you can be a homosexual and still be against gay marriage, you can be a homosexual and still believe that the best situation for a child to grow up in is with a mother and a father. Is Beckel inferring that only perfect people can expouse the virtues of trying to be a good moral example? Can people who have never had a drink in their life be the only ones to condemn alcoholism? How utterly assinine that is! None of us are perfect. We can only aspire to be the best we can, but just because we fail, and being humans, we will, doesn’t mean that we are hypocrites to push for good esthetic human values. The biggest hypocrisy here is on the left, who constantly tout homosexuality as being perfectly normal, yet will use it to destroy anyone who partakes in the lifestyle but does not jump on the queer activists political bandwagon.
What senator Craid did was disgusting, but in reality, it was the same as a parking ticket, a misdemeanor. Look at the things I outlined above and I think you would agree that almost all of those things are serious felonies. I think it is time for the republicans to say, I don’t give a damn what any republican congressman does, we are not going to ask for resignation short of treason. Because that is the standard the democrats use. Let me correct that, they don’t even use that standard, treason, as long as it is in the interest of the democratic party, is perfectly exceptable!
I agree with Ken. I too don’t care what he did there.
He didn’t behead anyone or seek to cause our defeat to those
who would.
I don’t care at all about the whole “family values” debate.
As long as he votes against the Democrats and to seek victory
in the Jihad Wars, that is good enough for me.
And for anyone who wants really strict morality (of a sort) imposed,
vote Dem and wait. Once the US surrenders to rule by the
Taleban or equivalent, you’ll get a chance to remember what
that sort of stuff is really about - and you won’t like it.
This is pathetic. If a person would listen to the tape instead of how the MSM sets up the tape……you will hear him trying to dispute the officer without Confronting him. This officer was doing his best to CREATE an altercation. The officer even say “people vote for you”.
And to understand the ‘why’ on Craig’s part for not fighting it? Foley. MSM. Fellow Congressmen. Rumors. He sure read it right but he should have fought it. Somebody has got to get their act together, grow some spines and stop these witch hunts conducted by the Dem’s MSM and the DNC.
Ah, BikerDude - just can’t help being a mite disingenuous:
Around these parts, they don’t put cuffs on you, take your mug shot, and record your bogus explanation of why you were two minutes over when they give you a parking ticket.
There are misdemeanors and misdemeanors, if you catch my drift. In many jurisdictions, gross sexual imposition is a misdemeanor, and in the Constitution, the president may be impeached for “high crimes and misdemeanors“.
Uh, Soot, the man plead out to disturbing the peace. Big deal. Chirs Dodd and Ted Kennedy could put that to shame with one of their watiress sandwich escapades. So, if this was Barney Frank, you would be saying that he had to resign, is that right?
What private crusade you idiot? I know Democrats rank and file who would think that gays are perverts. Are you really so brainwashed that you believe there is some plot to regulate your private behavior?
Terrye, I know you’re up against the wall here because you’ve provided some very flimsy arguments, but it’s misplaced to blame that on me and call me an idiot. I haven’t insulted you. If you can leave your own insults a the door, then perhaps we can focus on actual issues here and come to an understanding. HINT: That’s what people do who understand the issues and have well-constructed arguments.
First, I never said anything about a “private crusade.” Read it again carefully. I said the “republican crusade to legislate private behavior”. As an example, I point to gay marriage, a private decision between two consenting adults that has been legislated by republicans. I point to abstinence-only AIDS awareness education, a tactic proven to be a failure and yet adhered to by republicans so they can discourage Biblically-unsanctioned sex among consenting partners. There are other examples as well.
Well, if you feel that way then you should demand that these kinds of sting operations be brought to an end, after all whose business is it anyway?
You don’t understand. Shagging someone in the men’s room is not private behavior. It’s public behavior. Can you understand the difference? One is done, well, in private, whereas the other is done in public. What is done in public and legislated through law (such as having sex) is the public’s business. Welcome to Civics 101.
So you want me to condemn Craig’s behavior? Fine I condemn him for tapping his foot and waving his fingers. Bad boy.
Denial. It’s not just a river in Egypt, is it? Your determination not to look at the facts in this story clearly outlines the limits of your argument. Good luck with that.
And I am not a Republican, I am an Independent.
I guess I can’t blame you for wanting to distance yourself from the republicans. Similarly, after WW2 in Germany, apparently it was next to impossible to get someone to admit that they had supported the nazis. The trouble with your claim, of course, is that you continue to carry water for the republicans, through your strict adherence to a cover story honored only by Larry Craig. Once you can show some independence of thought, beyond just making the empty claim of being “an Independent,” you might one day appear to be an independent.
How does Aj attract these people? Are they all soothie? Can’t be that many of them.
If you don’t want your silly ideas subjected to scrutiny (and I can certainly see why you wouldn’t), then you shouldn’t post them on a blog on the internet. Otherwise, someone’s apt to come along and show you how absurd they are. The better bet for you is to share these ideas only among your fellow “true believers,” in an environment where no one can make fun of you or laugh.
No, I’m not Soothsayer, just another person with common sense. There are a bunch of us, actually, although I imagine they don’t frequent this blog.
Groping someone is not just a sueable offense. I believe it would be considered sexual assault if it is unwanted groping as it was in the case of Bill Clinton groping Kathleen Wiley.
Groping someone is not just a sueable offense.
Okay, let’s accept that.
Now, does the objectionable nature of Clinton’s actions somehow make Craig’s actions more acceptable?
Did Craig grope someone?
It’s been a while since I have had aa chance to post on AJ’s blog. This topis would not have been my first choice, nut some of the remarks made need some clarification.
1. There was no sexual, or even physical contact at all, not even his foot as someone erroneously stated.
“Craig tapped his toes several times and moved his foot closer to my foot.”
2. The Officer was not there as an undercover prostitute, he was there to catch lewd acts taking place in the restroom, not attempt to be involved in one.
“On 06/11/07, at about 1200 hours, I was working a plain-clothes detail involving lewd conduct in the main men’s public restroom of the Northstar Crossing in the Lindbergh Terminal. The Airport Police Department has received civilian complaints and has made numerous arrests regarding sexual activity in the public restroom.”
3. The Police Officer does not charge anyone with a crime, they can only suggest the charge, the District Attorney or the City Attorney decide the actual charges against a Defendant.
4. A Criminal charge that includes the word Lewd, is usually followed by lascivious which was not the case here. Craig did nothing that could be considered Lewd in this case because if he did, then so did the Officer.
“Craig tapped his toes several times and moved his foot closer to my foot. I moved my foot up and down slowly.”
5. The Officer positioned himself in the row of stalls so that he would be close enough to the “action” to hear it and make an arrest for Lewd conduct or to get some guy to expose himself to him which would have been Lewd conduct, Craig did none of these which probably frustrated the Officer into arresting him.
6. The Officer did not want to make a scene, not for the benefit of Craig, but for his own so that he could go right back into the Restroom and try to catch someone who was really committing a Lewd Act.
7. Defense Attorney questioning of this Officer at trial might go something like this:
Defense Attorney: Officer , you stated in your report that the Defendant whom you described as an older white male with grey hair, was standing 3 feet away from your stall door when you observed him looking at you through the crack in the door, is that correct?
Officer: Yes
Defense Attorney: You then go on to state that you observed the Defendant look down at his hand and fidget with his fingers, is that correct?
Officer: Yes, and he would then look through the crack again, I saw his blue eyes.
Defense Attorney: You then say that 2 minutes had passed when the Defendant entered into the stall next to your once it became vacant and placed his roller bag against front of the stall door, is that correct?
Officer: Yes, to block the view from the front of the stall.
Defense Attorney: Officer, is it your claim that, in your experience, all of these observations just mentioned are signs of wanting to commit a Lewd Act?
Officer: Wel..
Defense Attorney: Yes or No please!!
Officer: Yes
Defense Attorney: Officer, you are familiar with that term fidget, are you not?
Officer: Yes
Defense Attorney: Is it not a common occurence to see an elderly person with grey hair fidget with their fingers?
Officer: Yes, but
Defense Attorney: And is it not common to see someone who has to go to the bathroom really bad to fidget while they wait for the stall to become available?
Officer: Yes, but
Defense Attorney: Officer, how much room would you say there was between where you were seated in that stall and the back of the stall door?
Officer: I don’t know, maybe less than a couple of feet.
Defense Attorney: And how much room would you say there was on either side from where you were seated.
Officer: Maybe half a foot.
Defense Attorney: Officer, is it not true that the all people who bring a roller bag into a stall would have to place it against the front of the stall?
Officer: Well they don’t have to..
Defense Attorney: Officer, have you ever seen a roller bag that was more than 6 inches wide be placed at the side of a restroom stall?
Officer: Well, no but..
Defense Attorney: Is that because it would be impossible?? and so on and so on and so on!!
SBD
If SBD (aka Perry Mason) is correct, then I guess Craig is just a freakin’ moron for not hiring defense counsel.
But he didn’t - too bad, so sad.