Apr 10 2008
Sistani Does Join Maliki And Isolates Sadr
Bumped to Top, More Updates Below!
I posted the news yesterday that Iraq Grand Ayatollah Ali Sistani had basically thrown Mookie Sadr under the bus and sided with the Iraqi government of Maliki, and then waited all day to see any secondary reporting the act. None came but Sadr did have spokesman come out and claim Sistani had told him to keep his Mahdi Army. It seems Sadr lied (and the SurrenderMedia bought it hook-line-sinker and bobber). Bill Roggio has the confirming news, so far the SurrenderMedia is embarrassingly mum:
With the Iraqi government applying pressure to the Sadrist movement and Muqtada al Sadr to disband the Mahdi Army, Iraq’s senior Shia cleric has weighed in on the issue. Grand Ayatollah Ali Sistani, the most revered Shia cleric in Iraq, backed the government’s position that the Mahdi Army should surrender its weapons and said he never consulted with Sadr on disbanding the Mahdi Army. Instead, the decision to disband the Mahdi Army is Sadr’s to make.
Sistani spoke through Jalal el Din al Saghier, a senior leader of the Islamic Supreme Council of Iraq, a rival political party to the Sadrist movement. Saghier was clear that Sistani did not sanction the Mahdi Army and called for it to disarm.
“Sistani has a clear opinion in this regard; the law is the only authority in the country,” Saghier told Voices of Iraq, indicating Sistani supports Prime Minister Nouri al Maliki and the government in the effort to sideline the Mahdi Army. “Sistani asked the Mahdi army to give in weapons to the government.”
Sadr did not consult with Sistani on the issue of disbanding the Mahdi Army, disputing a claim from Sadrist spokesmen who intimated Iraqi’s top cleric told Sadr to maintain his militia. “The top Shiite cleric had not been consulted in establishing the Mahdi Army, so [he] could not interfere in dissolving it,” Saghier said. “Whosoever established the al-Mahdi army has to dissolve it; Sayyed Muqtada al-Sadr established this army and it is only him who has to dissolve it.”
Sistani is telling Sadr you either follow the law and do right or become a criminal and suffer the consequences. But it is Sadr’s responsibility to chose his path. Sadr is now completely exposed while his militia causes death and destruction fighting the authorities. Now the bloodshed is on his hands, as it was all the time.
And now the SurrenderMedia needs ask itself why it allowed itself to be dupes for a two-bit thug like Sadr. Why did they report propaganda that could not be confirmed. Why did they buy into the implausible, since Sistani has been against the militias for a long time and has been a supporter of the new Iragi government since its creation. Why would the liberal media defy all that history and run with Sadr’s cow manure?
Was it to give a boost to the Surrendercrats in Congress? Is our media willing to pass on lies to the American people as fact? Lies promulgated by a thug whose minions are killing US soldiers as we speak? At some point a price must be paid for this kind of support to our enemies, accidental or not.
If the SurrenderMedia and Surrendercrats don’t do some hard soul searching on how they are the useful puppets of the killers of our people, then America will do the soul searching and decide what to do about this terribly screwed up situation. We don’t need people echoing the lies of murderers of Americans, just to give them more cause to murder more Americans.
In related news Petraeus told Congress the actions against Sadr’s Mahdi Militia could take months. Then again the thug could collapse much quicker now that he is clearly working against the Shiite spiritual leaders.
Also, the UK SurrenderMedia is all miffed that Maliki snubbed UK forces when it needed some back up in Basra.
Iraq has snubbed British forces in Basra, turning to US troops to help fight Shia militia in the southern city despite the presence of British soldiers.
The withdrawal by British troops in September from their base at Basra palace to the relative safety of Basra airport outside the city has been blamed for the decision by Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki, to call for American help fighting the Mahdi army two weeks ago.
The UK Forces did not try to use the counter-insurgency tactics that the US did which turned the tide against al-Qaeda. They used the liberal “declare victory and leave a vacuum” and did to Basra what the Surrendercrats in Congress want to do to Iraq – which is hand it over to a new generation of thugs. Those finding for something more lasting and humane – like democracy in Iraq – would obviously pass by the offer to have more of the same bad ideas which brought about much of the hate in the Middle East in the first place.
Update: As we learn more (and ignore the myopic media) we see that the Basra move was, as I said a while back, an effort by Iran to take control of the port city of Basra – something Iran has been trying to do for decades.:
A GAMBLE that proved too costly.
That’s how analysts in Tehran describe events last month in Basra. Iran’s state-run media have de facto confirmed that this was no spontaneous “uprising.” Rather, Iran’s Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps (IRGC) tried to seize control of Iraq’s second-largest city using local Shiite militias as a Trojan horse.
…
The Iranian plan – developed by Revolutionary Guard’s Quds (Jerusalem) unit, which is in charge of “exporting the Islamic Revolution” – aimed at a quick victory. To achieve that, Tehran spent vast sums persuading local Iraqi security personnel to switch sides or to remain neutral.
The hoped-for victory was to be achieved as part of a massive Shiite uprising spreading from Baghdad to the south via heartland cities such as Karbala, Kut and al-Amarah. A barrage of rockets and missiles against the “Green Zone” in Baghdad and armed attacks on a dozen police stations and Iraqi army barracks in the Shiite heartland were designed to keep the Maliki government under pressure.
…
he expected call from the Najaf ayatollahs to stop “Shiite fratricide” failed to materialize. Grand Ayatollah Ali-Muhammad Sistani, the top cleric in Iraq, gave his blessings to the Maliki-launched operation. More broadly, the Shiite uprisings in Baghdad, Karbala, Najaf and other cities that Quds commanders had counted upon didn’t happen. The “Green Zone” wasn’t evacuated in panic under a barrage of rockets and missiles.
But the blindfolded media and liberals claim Iran is perfectly reasonable and are not involved in Iraq. In fact, Barack Obama wants to sit down to tea with the Mad Mullahs and Ahmedinejad (God’s messenger, so he claims) and chat about Iraq. No wonder they tried to grab the southern part of Iraq before our elections. H/T to reader Kathie
Update: Make sure to check out the interview with Bill Roggio at Front Page:
FP: So what about the news reports that indicated that the U.S. and the Iraqi Security Forces’ Basra offensive against Sadr was a failure?
Roggio: The reports of the death of the Iraqi Army in Basrah were widely exaggerated. The Iraqi Army and police met some stiff resistance in the opening days, but the media jumped to call this failure. Prime Minister Maliki did not plan well for the operation and jumped the gun on its execution by months (it was to be carried out in July). An Iraqi Army brigade fresh out of basic training was thrown into the fight and cracked – about 500 troops “underperformed or deserted” according to the New York Times, and 400 police deserted. But the other estimated 44,500 Iraqi security forces in Basrah held.
The Iraqi command rushed in reinforcements – about 1 Division or 7,000 troops, and by the weekend the Iraqi security forces began to get the upper hand. Then Sadr ordered his Mahdi Army to leave the streets. By the end of the fighting, more than 500 Mahdi fighters were killed, about 1000 wounded and another 300 captured in the fighting in Basrah, Baghdad, and the great South, where the military performed well against the Mahdi Army.
…
FP: What role is Iran playing? This whole face-off revealed Iranian military intervention in Iraq to be a given, right?
Roggio: To streamline operations in Iraq, Iran’s Qods Force established a unified command, called the Ramazan Corps, and split Iraq into three roughly geographical regions. I obtained a detailed description of the Ramazan Corps’ command and control network, storage and distribution facilities, training camps, and ratlines – or supply lines – into Iraq last fall.
The Ramazan Corps is a military command with senior Qods Force generals in charge. They direct the flow of weapons, cash, and the deadly rockets, mortars, and explosively formed projectiles into the hands of the Special Groups working in Iraq. The Ramazan Corps also brings Iraqi fighters in Iran to train them, and runs training camps inside Iraq as well.
The Times Online just released information that the Ramazan Corps “were operating at a tactical command level with the Shi’ite militias fighting Iraqi security forces” during the recent fighting in Basrah. “Some were directing operations on the ground.” This should come as no surprise to anyone following Iranian activities inside Iraq or have an understanding of the Ramazan Corps. Iran is fighting a thinly veiled, undeclared war against both the Iraqi people and the United States.
IF the news media were truly journalists and not propagandists this news would be headlines across the nation. The view from the region is Sadr and the Mahdi Army are toast – definitely read this one!
The young Shiite leader’s sin is that he did not find out from the start, and perhaps still has not found out, how Iran used him to deepen the sectarian divide in Iraq, despite his moderate stance in this respect. His pursuit of revenge from the “Baathists,” the followers of Saddam, who killed his father and uncle, has turned into an out of control, generalized campaign of sectarian eradication. Iran’s objective for adopting, arming and financing Al-Sadr’s militia was to create a “balance of terror” with Sunni dissidents seeking to defend their position and interests in the new system. Consequently, the “Mahdi Army” that grouped fighters from every impoverished region of Iraq, including some criminal gangs, turned into security groups led, controlled, and directed by Iranian intelligence, which took advantage of decades of social and political oppression.
The media and liberal ‘experts’ really screwed up on this one. How many mulligans do these people get before they are tossed out of the game?
Update: How long can the media hide the truth about how Sistani just threw Sadr to the sharks:
“Al-Sistani has a clear opinion in this regard; the law is the only authority in the country,” al-Saghier told Aswat al-Iraq – Voices of Iraq (VOI).
“The top Shiite cleric had not been consulted in establishing al-Mahdi army, so it could not interfere in dissolving it,” he added.
“Whosoever established the al-Mahdi army has to dissolve it,” he underlined.
“Sayyed Muqtada al-Sadr established this army and it is only him who has to dissolve it,” he explained.
“Al-Sistani asked al-Mahdi army to give in weapons to the government,” the Shiite official said.
Now, will Sadr do as he was asked by the Grand Ayatollah? H/T Protein Wisdom.
60 Responses to “Sistani Does Join Maliki And Isolates Sadr”
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I thought this was interesting at “Freerepublic”, Taheri is usually a very reliable source.
IRAN’S BUSTED IRAQ BID (Iran’s Quds unit failed to destabilize Iraq)
04/10/2008 2:23:16 AM PDT · by TigerLikesRooster · 17 replies · 601+ views
NY Post ^ | 04/10/08 | AMIR TAHERI
IRAN’S BUSTED IRAQ BID By AMIR TAHERI April 10, 2008 — A GAMBLE that proved too costly. That’s how analysts in Tehran describe events last month in Basra. Iran’s state-run media have de facto confirmed that this was no spontaneous “uprising.” Rather, Iran’s Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps (IRGC) tried to seize control of Iraq’s second-largest city using local Shiite militias as a Trojan horse. Tehran’s decision to make the gamble was based on three assumptions: * Iraqi Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki wouldn’t have the courage to defend Basra at the risk of burning his bridges with the Islamic Republic in…
You beat me to it Kathie, was going to post it in the other thread, so much for Maliki being in bed with Iran.
Fanastic post, AJ – this is the kind of synthesis and analysis that major media USED to be able to do, but no longer.
“Was it to give a boost to the Surrendercrats in Congress?”
– Yes.
“Is our media willing to pass on lies to the American people as fact?”
Every minute and every hour of every day.
“Lies promulgated by a thug whose minions are killing US soldiers as we speak?”
They prefer that US soldiers are killed, because it’s a useful club to beat Bush over the head with. And just look at Jay Rockefellers statement the other day – they really never could stand the military anyway, or anyone who supports it.
“At some point a price must be paid for this kind of support to our enemies, accidental or not.”
They don’t think so. They think you can fool all the people all the time, or at least enough of the time to win an election.
I noted another interesting thing about *all* of the stories you quoted, something that I’ve been noticing from every other source as well, no matter their affiliation. And this is that *everyone* seems to agree that Sadr is now just a figurehead with no actual operational control over “his” Mahdi Army or anyone associated with it. That also probably explains why he’s so quick to seek some kind of negotiated end to this – he knows better than anyone that no one in “his” army actually takes orders from him anymore.
Who do they take orders from now? If it truly is Iran, then Iran has just taken a beating. If not, then probably no one at all and in that case, they are finished.
As one of your sources states, of course Iran isn’t done meddling and will try again. But this affair showed the Iranians that all of their assumptions about Iraq were wrong – if nothing else, that will lead to them being much more cautious before making another overt attempt to destabilize part of the country, and almost certainly will cause them to sit back and reevaluate the situation for a few months. That’s the critical window that’s open – if Iraq can finally be stabilized in the next few critical months, it can stand on it’s own for the rest of our lifetimes.
I noted another interesting thing about *all* of the stories you quoted, something that I’ve been noticing from every other source as well, no matter their affiliation. And this is that *everyone* seems to agree that Sadr is now just a figurehead with no actual operational control over “his” Mahdi Army or anyone associated with it. That also probably explains why he’s so quick to seek some kind of negotiated end to this – he knows better than anyone that no one in “his” army actually takes orders from him anymore.
Who do they take orders from now? If it truly is Iran, then Iran has just taken a beating. If not, then probably no one at all and in that case, they are finished.
As one of your sources states, of course Iran isn’t done meddling and will try again. But this affair showed the Iranians that all of their assumptions about Iraq were wrong – if nothing else, that will lead to them being much more cautious before making another overt attempt to destabilize part of the country, and almost certainly will cause them to sit back and reevaluate the situation for a few months. That’s the critical window that’s open – if Iraq can finally be stabilized in the next few critical months, it can stand on it’s own for the rest of our lifetimes.
first – show me where obama claims that ahmedinewhatshisname is god’s messenger. until then i’ll assume the rest of this post is as factual. second – “…if the news media were truly journalists and not propagandists…” we wouldn’t even be in iraq. if the press wasn’t a bunch of stenographers bush probably wouldn’t even have gotten a second term. so be careful what you wish for.
WWS, Peter Zeihan at Stratfor sai, as I recall, that Iran is upset that Sadr is trying to be a free agent with his “gang”. And that the gang has no standing of any value in Iran because Sadr is not a “religious” man and he is trying to get his “standing”. He also thought that the Iranians were forcing Sadr to become “political” and that would end the Madhi’s…
I like this title…….found at NRO
CLIFFORD D. MAY: I’d rather fight in Iraq for a century than declare defeat to the Islamists. “A Hundred Years of War?”
Norm,
“if the press wasn’t a bunch of stenographers bush probably wouldn’t even have gotten a second term. so be careful what you wish for.”
You really are dumber than dirt…
whippet…personal attack with no substance. i’ll take it for what it’s worth.
Norm, remember what you just wrote, it’ll be the perfect epitaph for you someday:
Norm: Personal attack with no substance.
pretty much sums you up.
Norm, I believe AJ believes Ahmadinejad considers himself to be “God’s Messenger”. Altho I have not heard him in speeches reserve that bestowed title upon himself. Doesn’t mean he isn’t a serious bad guy tho.
However you misread, as AJ didn’t mean that to be BHO’s words.
Sadr formed the Mahdi militia in 2003. However they, just as so many other Islamic jihad groups, have become their own rogue elements. With Sadr not wielding the religious or political power they need to wage jihad under Islamic law, many now even ignore hime, and are now nothing more than thugs, gangs and mafia. All of which will end up under the Iraq gov’ts fly swatter over time.
As for the rest of your liberal media talking points, you may want to start reading some source material instead of media headlines.
Translation of IIS + documents confiscated in Iraq that detail Saddam’s relationship with Zawahiri and other AQ associated groups since early 90s.
Don’t want to believe translations because that inconvenient to your indoctrination? Try listening to the enemy direct… Zawahiri, in his own words from his “Open Forum” not a week or so ago. Promises the jihad influence will increase in the wake of a US withdrawal, and that the Awakening Council members will be dealth with… “death by battle, or peace with humiliation”.
Dr. Stephen Biddle’s (CFR) testimony before Congress Apr 2nd of this year, laying out an honesty withdrawal vs staying. Also says that the case for stability is much better now than last year. However the cost of leaving is also very high.
Documentation of WMD and proscribed weaponry in Saddam’s possession, and being moved prior, during and after CIF in the May 2004 UNMOVIC report.
Need any more source docs instead of headlines? My bookmarks are filled with them.
Oops… let’s fix that UNMOVIC report link.. Cut/paste senior moment… LOL
http://www.un.org/Depts/unmovic/new/documents/quarterly_reports/s-2004-435.pdf
I have to say that I just find the democratic leadership so stupid. So Iran is fighting Shea Arabs to annex their biggest oil producing city Basra and the Dems are calling it a civil war and we have to get out. Do they not read or do they not care?
We all should read this again, can be found on FREEREPUBLIC, to remind ourselves how miss leading dems are. Who says they care about others? It’s a big fake!
The dead speak
04/10/2008 12:09:43 PM PDT · by JZelle · 1 replies · 140+ views
The Washington Times ^ | 4-10-08 | Paul Greenburg
There are some names in the obituary columns that say more than the voices of the living. Such is the name of Dith Pran, who died in New Brunswick, N.J., March 30 at age 65. He was the Cambodian photographer who somehow survived the collection of killing fields that his country became after the Americans abandoned it. And who somehow made his way to the United States to tell the world about it. Millions of his countrymen lost their lives after the Khmer Rouge swept into Phnom Penh and began rounding up unreliable types — i.e., just about anyone who…
kathie…i’m an independent…and while i try not to stoop to childish personal attacks so i won’t call you stupid…i’d have to say you are ill-informed. iran has their hand in everything…absolutely everything…in iraq. they are backing sadr and maliki and al queda and sistani and who knows who else. what does that tell you? iran is a major player in iraq. the actions of the united states have given them huge leverage. some dems realize this fact of life (a fact we made happen) and understand that anything that happens in iraq will have to include iran some way some how. the administration prefers to saber rattle and pretend they will be able to accomplish anything in iraq in spite of iran. is there precedent for this? yes. some dems called for soft partitioning of the country. republicans said that was a non-starter…then they stood by while the inevitable happened…now you have ethnic cleansing and the same republicans scream victory while refusing to acknoledge the thousands that died who could have been saved if they were able to see reality instead of only their hyper-partisan views. so…you can continue your hyper-partisanship…or you can become better informed.
Strata quotes approvingly from media which says Iran is rather successfully conducting a “balance of terror” and finds optimism in it.
Since his man Maliki is warmly hugging an Iranian president Strata
has previously suggested is the most dangerous leader in the world, who is presumably playing a part in conducting the balancing act,one wonders whence the optimism.
…the SurrenderMedia and Surrendercrats don’t do some hard soul searching on how they are the useful puppets of the killers of our people, then America will do the soul searching and decide what to do about this terribly screwed up situation.
Yes, AJ, it is, all in all, a terribly screwed-up situation when your government is being played by Iran so well and your leader Bush’s
best strategy is to stonewall the whole thing into the next president’s
hands. Whoever he is will have to negotiate a deal with Iran if he wants an orderly retreat out of Iraq. Oh-and the 35% of the public
who still support the “screwed-up situation” don’t have a clue about
“what to do” about it, and will only wring their hands as the retreat
is negotiated.
http://www.counterpunch.org/smith04102008.html
Meanwhile as Smith outlines, Maliki’s crew has always been more pro-Iranian than al Sadr’s, with a history of open collaboration in the Iran/Iraq War where the US leaned heavily to supporting Saddam.
Bottom line-America has no Shia friends among the various factions it has set loose to war against each other, while Iran stays on good terms proportionately as it sees fit with all parties.
I see Norm is still crying about personal attacks.
Here’s a tip for you Norm…if you want to be treated with respect, you don’t walk into someone’s house invited, start flinging crap all over the walls, and then expect the host to clean it up and offer you a fresh gin and tonic. Especially, since it’s the same crap your leftist brethren have been flinging since 9/11, and it’s all been cleaned up over and over and over again. Got it?
You must occupy the high road before claiming it and at the rate you are digging, you may never see it.
I see Truthy is back to carry the Persian’s water for them.
Curious, no?
75…the problem with people like you is that people who disagree with you are “flinging crap” or fascists or surrendercrats…show me where i’m wrong and i will apologize and continue on with an open mind. however people like you don’t discuss…when confronted with ideas that conflict with your own you simply resort to childish personal attacks. that’s when i know that i am on the correct side of the debate.
Norm…..We all know that Iran has their fingers in every pie, Syria, Lebanon, the Palestinian territories, Venezuela, etc. OK….the point I was making is that the Iraqi’s are not fighting a civil war in the south, they are fighting Persians or stooges of the Persians by the name of Sadr’s army, lead, supplied and paid for the Persians, who want their oil supply, who want to annex their land……..they stood up and fought, because they are Iraqi’s. So yes many of the Iraqi’s lived in Iran, but maybe they think of themselves as Iraqi’s not an extension of Iran.
Whose water are you carrying? The American Empire’s “right” to dominate the Middle East and in this case to dominate Iraq. Yeah, I “confess,” the Persians have a right to more influence in Iraq than America does, just as America has a right to have more influence in Canada than does Iran. And your favored attempts to thwart Iran are doomed, because more Iraqis see it Persia’s way.
Norm,
Evidence has been given to you time and time again and you choose to not see it. You are the one who is incapeable of discussion because you are blind to the truth. 75’s statement is dead on.
Kathie, you’re an uneducated fool who blinds your eyes to the fact Maliki and the Badr Corp and SCIRI are also paid “stooges of Iran,”
with more historic ties to being so than al Sadr. Many of their militias were trained by Iran. America is merely fighting a defensive stalling game at the mercy of Iran’s “balancing act.” Also at the mercy of the temporarily aligned Sunnis who have no intention of participating in a pro-American government but are merely using American largesse to gain as much power as possible vis a vis their Shia rivals before America is forced out.
Norm, ok, you want to play this stupid game? Fine.
“if the news media were truly journalists and not propagandists…” we wouldn’t even be in iraq.”
This comment alone makes you the moron you are and there are many, many, many more from you. Not only does it imply that Bush wouldn’t have won a second term without the media, which in itself is complete nonsense, it gives the impression that you actually believe the media is in Bush’s corner…a claim so far off base that you should be fitted for a rubber room by now.
Truthy,
Interesting that you use the term Persians for Iranians…Your veil is slipping and you have exposed yourself.
Truthy…
Why?
What claims of influence does Iran have in Iraq?
What claims does America have in Canada?
What makes you believe that Iraqis actually favor Iranians?
And when have you last had a CAT-Scan?
Truthy,
“Yeah, I “confess,” the Persians have a right to more influence in Iraq than America does, just as America has a right to have more influence in Canada than does Iran.”
Really…I wish I had known this when I lived closer to the Canadian border. I didn’t know there was an “influence” rule. Can you link the applicable requirements to the influence laws so that we can all take advantage?
Geesh…
75…who do you want to start with? judith miller of the ny times? she wrote exactly what cheney and libby told her to write. then cheney went on meet the press and said; “…see, it’s right there in the ny times…”. or maybe we should talk about bob woodward. he knew about the administration leaking a covert operatives name just prior to the 2006 election but did not write about it. do you really think that would have had no effect on the outcome? but they say bad case makes bad law…let’s look big picture. we could talk about sunday morning “news” shows where 61 percent of the guests are conservative as opposed to 39% liberals. or maybe you would like to look at newspapers where 60% of newspapers run more conservative columnists than liberal columnists. only 20% run more liberals than conservatives. or maybe you just want to call me a moron.
Norm, you really ARE dumber than dirt, aren’t you?
Judith Miller got caught with her hands inthe proverbial cookie jar of falsehoods. She wouldn’t rat out her source because she knew she had misreported what the source told her. this is a common tactic of leftist journos who need the truth buried…see Dan Rather.
Woodward reported no leak because there wasn’t one, dummy. Hell, even Fitz knew and has said there was no leak. And not only no leak, but no covert agent either. Libby should sue Fitz for everything he’s got.
And now…just for laughs…”Hey everybody!! Norm actually thinks the media is biased towards conservatives!!”
60% conservative columnists? You’re high or stupid. Either way, you’re way out of your league in this forum. I’d call you a liar but I think everyone already knows it.
There was absolutely no challenging of the cherrypicked and false intelligence Bush and Co presented to the public by the MSM, pre-war. THE MSM cheer-led for the war.
http://www.amconmag.com/03_24_03/cover.html
You had to go to Pat Buchanan’s authentic, non-Lobby owned
Conservative publication and other alternative periodicals to get the truth behind the lies.
75 is a charlatan kickshaw type who has the knowledge of a kindergartener re Shia cross-border affinity. That is, no knowledge at all.
While it is true many Iraqi Shia are only lukewarm about Iranian influence, the overwhelming majority absolutely abhor America occupation and have since 2004.
http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/iraq/2004-04-28-poll-cover_x.htm
Posted 4/28/2004 3:32 PM Updated 4/30/2004 6:54 A BEYOND WORDS
Poll: Iraqis out of patience
By Cesar G. Soriano and Steven Komarow,USA TODAY
BAGHDAD — Only a third of the Iraqi people now believe that the American-led occupation of their country is doing more good than harm, and a solid majority support an immediate military pullout even though they fear that could put them in greater danger, according to a new USA TODAY/CNN/Gallup Poll. (Graphic: Iraqis surveyed)
Truthy..since we’ve established you and Norm are clearly disreputable…all that’s left to us is to gauge the damage. Do you or Norm have any 9/11 conspiracy theories you can share with us? How about a building 7 claim? or an Osbama Bin Laden/Bush rendez -vous in the Lincoln bedroom? How about some Paulbots? I mean…why hold back now?
Must be time to circle the wagons…Truthy has gone back to a tried and failed tactic of quoting old polling data…and probably bogus data as well. Note the source. And a new wrinkle…a kindgergarten reference….oooooooh.
Perhaps you can share a poll from 1980 with us as to how much the Iranians loved the Iraqis?
Must be time to circle the wagons…Truthy has gone back to a tried and failed tactic of quoting old polling data…and probably bogus data as well. Note the source. And a new wrinkle…a kindgergarten reference….oooooooh.
Perhaps you can share a poll from 1980 with us as to how much the Iranians loved the Iraqis?
“Prolonging the war in Iraq will be like walking through a V-shaped land or swimming in a swamp infested with alligators,” it reads. “To the American people, the true salvation to your economy and security can be achieved by pulling out of Iraq.”
http://www.csmonitor.com/2008/0410/p01s05-wome.html?page=1
Take it from a Sunni insurgent leader temporarily aligned with America thru financial bribery who knows. The “Awakening”
crews take money to fight Al Qaeda while also attacking American forces. The war is lost.
If there is justice in the world, 75 has kith, kin and loved ones whose life and limb are at stake in Iraq, who will suffer the defeat directly and/or more hopefully indirectly-that is, if my counsel since 2003
of bringing the troops home was/is followed.
If he doesn’t, of course, he is merely a cowardly chickenhawk & ignoramus who is free to crow without personal risk , and was free to crow about imminent victory also in 2004, as the leadership he still trusts and promotes was indeed crowing.
You are pathetic, truther, bile that can type.
TH2T,
Have you served in Iraq?
TH2T,
Oops, I hit the wrong button. The reason I ask is if you wish to pull the chickenhawk meme, then the only way you can pull it is if you served, no? Just sayin’.
Your logic is quintessentially flawed. I have opposed the war from the start, so have no obligation at all in this respect , but I can tell you as of late 2006 the majority of families which had lost a son or daughter in the war had turned against it, quite a statistic for military families.
I do get a kick out of our friend Truth. Besides his fondness for quoting ancient polling data, he then leads us to a story of a Sunni insurgent. I love the way Truth takes the final quote from page three of the story. The insurgent urges the US to leave and Truth thinks that is final and killer quote. Let’s see, if I urge Truth to leave this site, will he accept that too?
Rick
How is my logic flawed? For someone to be a chicken hawk they need to expect others to fight for them when they “refuse” despite being physically capable. That is a paraphrase of the definition that was used. That being the case, only those that served should have a “right” to speak up and if you have not served then your opinion doesn’t matter. Kind of like quid pro quo, no?
Regardless of your stance, regardless of your position, if you “play” the chicken hawk meme like you did to 75 thne you too, are held to its standards. You didn’t serve so you must stop this portion of your position. Otherwise retract it and proceed.
Note to Truthie,
Any poll that doesn’t give the percentages of each group surveyed is bogus. Everyone kn0ws it including you. And to link and old poll is just as bad and you know it…but being deceptive is your style.
Truthie, Norm, Breschau, soothie and the rest have no interest in honest debate.
And Truth…there’s a fine line between a far-righty like Buchanan and a radical lefty like you.
The Truth is Ever so hard to Deal With and Norm,
If I could take a moment of your time – I know at least one of you is looking at some old interviews and surveys from the 80’s or whatever – I would recommend a review of ‘The Belmont Club’.
To counter your arguments I could recommend many posts, but ‘About More Than Just Iraq’ would be a very good start.
“Thus the refusal of Sistani to intervene — worse still his statement that “the law is the only authority in the country” — meant the end of JAM’s last hope. Sadr can no longer hope for salvation by listening for the bell. Any bells that he hears are ringing in his head.
But Sadr is really small potatoes though the many newspapermen perversely think of him as the uncrowned king of Iraq, and the “winner” of the recent confrontation. What recent events really signify is that Maliki, not Iran’s Khamenei, is the master of southern Iraq, or at least that the control of southern Iraq is now in dispute between the two. This means that there are now two political power centers in the Shi’ite arc. One center is based in Teheran and the other is based in Iraq. While the hard reality of a properous Kurdistan and the presence of a Sunni population whose insurgency was only so recently beaten (and which may flare up upon provocation) means that the Shi’ites can never control all of Iraq, southern Iraq is now the locus of an alternative polity within Shi’ism. Thus, Iran’s failed gamble is not only a foreign defeat for the Qods; it is a domestic political setback for the theocracy.
Because the stakes are so high Iran has no choice but to lick its wounds and try again. This is one fight Teheran really can’t afford to lose. As Amir Taheri says, “this was just the first round. The struggle for Iraq isn’t over.” The second round, when it comes, will probably be a variation of the “Tet” strategy, just as this was.”
I still think it odd that you and the media are squealing about a “Tet” strategy. To my understanding, the North Koreans and Vietcong initiated an attack on the South Vietnamese during Tet. How does that correlate with Iraqi national forces attacking some squalid turds in their ‘stronghold’.
When the superhero Iranian sQuds and the mighy Sadrists strike again nations will bend their knee. They cannot be defeated. They are all-powerful.
Again, my money is on Iraq.
Those turds are ‘Targets of Opportunity’.
The joke of all this is that Hil and Obie, if either is elected, are NOT going to get out of Iran! Hmmmm…..what do they REALLY know and won’t share with the naysayers/global socialists/communists/democrat/leftists/deranged…
Norm/truthie/Soothie are going to implode!
Truthie,
Chew on this one for a while.
http://hotair.com/archives/2008/03/17/iraq-poll-improvements-across-the-board/
This line over at Protein Wisdom is key:
“The Shiite clerical leadership in Najaf would oppose intervention by the new Iraqi security forces in a battle that could lead to heavy Shiite casualties.”
The Iranians apparently believed that the Shiite leadership would oppose any operation in Basra. The Iranians believed that Sistani would take the position of Shiite first, Iraqi second. And that is a natural conclusion for an Iranian to come to because that is how Iranians think. And one tends to think that one is stable and normal and good … and that everyone else on the planet would think just the same. Well, that is how miscalculations are made because often other people don’t think exactly the same way. You cant expect other people to think the same.
Liberals make the same mistake all the time. Their solutions are great as long as everyone else thinks just like they do.
I think this is a must read.
Michael Yon: My Friday Op-Ed in The Wall Street Journal
If the argument is the POTUS has to be a combat vet in order to make decisions about war, then that pretty much leaves Obama and Billary out too now doesn’t it? Or is it still the lefts argument that the POTUS does not have the constitutional authority to be POTUS—and likewise that exercising such authority is an impeachable offense? Or that following a congressional order is unconstitutional because some senator personally changed their mind after voting for a legal binding resolution? Or is the argument, that by them “not” being vets, that means they won’t go to war?
And who are all these disgruntled, leaking, “former officals” who have been plastered all over book shelves and TV hawing their dissent on the Iraq intelligence if there was no dissent? I do not hold sorrow for what happened to Saddam. He deserved it. And more than that, I’m glad we had a hand it seeing it served on him. But, I would suggest, that the notion that the POTUS would double-check and question and vet the intelligence given him by other agencies…has “already” been tried by the nutroots and congressional propeller head intellectuals who have decided that the president, attempting to vet intelligence given him, was treason of some sort or another. In fact..the dems think it’s an imeachable offense for a POTUS to have his own staff to even question the intel given them, or , even worse, to make their own judgements about it, do they not?
As to intelligence, the intelligence communty failed on a catastrophic scale. That point has “entirely” been pushed aside. Nobody talks about it. It was Bush’s fault. He “lied” and thousands “died”. There was PLENTY of dissent as well, as evidenced by the talking heads and books on tthe market now which speak directly to it. There was dissent written in the NIE summary. And for all the bluster, and book sales and money speaking engagements, not ONE of those people was willing to go on the record about it and say so. In fact, quite a few of them, when their statements were put into congressional record, said gave very different impressions than they do in public, on TV or in their books/aticles (Joe Wilson included). Go figure. Oh, there is no doubt, the President Bush was making a hard case for holding Iraq’s feet to the fire. And there any number of cases to be made about why Saddam should be dealt with. Just to list them takes nearly any entire page (as evidenced by any number of resolutions passed declaring it so).
But we are where we are “now” and need to think about where we go from “here” based on what is “in front of us”, not what should have been, or could have been, or would have been. We already invaded Iraq. Saddam is dead. The sunni/baathist dictatoral control of Iraq is dissolved. We have fought our way through the aftermath, mistakes and all. And we face what we face now. There are certainly fundamental truths in the area now that are apparently hard to accept by some, based on political, idealogical positions. That’s on ALL sides of this.
One only need be mildy observant to recognize that it is important for Iraq to have some kind of peaceful co-existance with it’s neighbors other than killing a million of them, and using WMD, or threatening the same. And if all the “Truth be told”, then we’d have to talk about Iran and other countries current invovlement in destabilizing, and murderous, activities inside Iraq as well. As Mick Jagger said witnessing a stomp down in front him at Altimont….”People….who’s fighting and what for”? You can’t stop asking those questions just because you disagreed with the reasons for the initial invasion. We are how many years into this already? Who is killing who, and why, is important. And you certainly can’t just ask those questions of “one-party” to a multiparty conflict and declare any sort of deeper understanding of the situation. Everyone has their “interests”. Not just the US. And everyone’s interests, and the actions they take in the course of persuing those interests, must certainly be looked at and seen clearly to have any sort of depth of understanding about where we are now, what is possible, or what is down the road. I’m not so sure being fluent in election 04 rhetroic, pre-war arguments, etc., and expanding that into the future is really capturing the essence of the situation on the ground and what kind of dynamics exists today, etc.
Just a thought.
“If there is justice in the world, 75 has kith, kin and loved ones whose life and limb are at stake in Iraq, who will suffer the defeat directly and/or more hopefully indirectly…”
Nice to see Truthy is so concerned about the welfare of others.
“The joke of all this is that Hil and Obie, if either is elected, are NOT going to get out of Iran! ”
Quite a slip, you’ve had it. You only wish.
Dc
Like traditional conservative James Burnham said, the only interest in the Mideast for America is oil and whoever has the oil will sell it at market prices. Of course the neo-cons whose primary loyalty is to another nation beg to differ and the amoral military-industrial complex begs to profit.
Truthy says….”It’s the Joooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooos!”
http://www.commondreams.org/headlines04/0329-11.htm
so do the Jooooos themselves, clown, Bush loyalist Zelikow being one in a more honest moment.
On the other hand this leaves open the question –are you a dishonest one, or merely a dunce?
Greater minds than yours have proclaimed the fact that hil and barama know they will stay in Iraq!
Staying and winning are two different things.Vietnam in slow motion.
Ah, Truthy with a Vietnam reference. Who didn’t see that coming? Hang in there Truthy..you may get another Vietnam yet.
James Burnham? Traditional Consevative? hahahaha. Thats a good one. Are you just being intellectually dishonest as an attempt at humor?