May 15 2008
When Will The “True Conservatives” Wake Up To The Damage They Did?
The purity wars inside the GOP are doing what many of us feared and predicted, decimating the GOP as America dumps the “true conservatives” and goes with conservative democrats. Those are the choices we have seen in the last 3 special elections: Far Right verses Left of Center. America chose Left of Center.
Why did America do that? Probably because they are tired of the far right testing their purity and clamoring all the time about who the best, most pure conservatives are, while damning those lesser conservatives – which are at times called ‘moderates’ (best said with the nose up in the air), many times ‘RINOs’ (Republican In Name Only), and on some issues ‘traitors’. America has decided that the ‘true conservatives’ are too difficult to deal with and are going with the conservative democrats or moderate republicans instead.
Rush Limbaugh tried to say the other day that the GOP dumped on the conservatives (of course all the true conservative ranting and name calling over issues like immigration is not dumping, it is politics). Actually conservatives, at least the ‘pure, true’ conservatives of Hannity and Levin and others, are not being dumped on. American voters are simply dumping them – period. Sorry Rush, but that dumping feeling is Americans telling the far right they went too far. That feeling of rejection is not because people are mean to the far right, it was because the far right became too caustic and heated and started on their purity rant, which left voters cold and looking elsewhere.
Note how all the ‘true conservative’ presidential candidates failed in this year’s GOP primary. The ‘true’ conservative’s worst enemy has became the party standard bearer. That was a message to the far right. The fact the conservative movement is growing and succeeding on the Democrat side of the aisle is a message to the far right. The fact that the liberal democrats had to end their own purity wars and allow pro-life candidates into the fold to gain back their political power is a message to the far right. The only question is whether anyone is listening on the far right, or are they all still obsessively comparing how ‘pure’ they are too each other and ignoring everything else going on around them?
Personally, I prefer the Reagan-Bush version of conservatism that came out of the GOP. But that was a broad coalition Reagan built. A diverse movement that respected differences and did not have litmus tests. This is not Reagan’s conservative movement today, clearly since it has decided to reject one of the most successful conservative president’s in modern history: George W Bush. Funny thing is all these purists think it was centrist Bush who chased the centrists to the center? Now that is some pretzel logic! If you are on the right and cannot stand Bush it is a good bet you are a ‘true conservative’, and you probably look in the mirror and think you see Reagan staring back.
But Reagan was extremely tolerant of non-conservative views. Remember, he was an life-long Democrat – like Harriet Miers. And we all know how Mrs. Miers was treated. He signed into law the largest, real amnesty bill for illegal immigrants, and we all know what traitors lurk in the GOP to repeat Reagan’s sin. Conservatism has a bad image right now, and the fact is the ones at fault are those who created the image of ‘true conservatism’ and claimed it was the only allowable brand of conservative thought allowed in the GOP. When they did that they told everyone else to take a hike – and they did! Now Americans support conservative democrats as they take over GOP seats held for a decade or more. We have succeeded in obtaining purity! (of course being an independent who is not allowed to be ‘conservative’ due to his impure positions the ‘we’ is very much tongue in cheek, or as Tonto would have said ‘what’s this ‘we’ stuff Kimosabe?”)
This was always where the purity wars were going to lead. To make something pure means to distill it down to just a few numbers with identical traits. That in politics is called a fringe group, because it is so far outside the impure mainstream. It looks like when Bush completed much of the common ground the right of center coalition agreed on, that coalition was destined to blow apart. There was nothing left to fight for that everyone agreed on. Now comes the next coalition, whatever shape that may be. Hopefully another Reagan-Bush type leader will arise that will quell this ten year itch the far right gets, which lands us with Clintons and Carters and who knows what this year.
Update: With all due respect to Ed Morrissey, who I find is one of the most level headed people on the right, his current thesis on what is wrong with the GOP is just not realistic:
Did the House GOP caucus take a hard line on pork-barrel spending or adopt policies to cut federal spending? No. Republican voters and conservative pundits begged the House and Senate caucuses to make dramatic breaks with the previous six years and adopt real conservative policies of fiscal responsibility and federalism. What did they do? They offered to stop earmarking only if Democrats followed suit, a deal everyone knew would never take place. Instead of appointing one single anti-pork activist to the House Appropriations Committee in Jeff Flake, they appointed Joe Bonner, a good Congressman but a well-known earmarker, and mostly because Flake’s anti-pork crusade irritates his colleagues.
Sorry, this is too much inside baseball to sway the electorate outside the beltway. And the idea anyone would gravitate to the tax-and-spend Dems to limit spending is laughable (but I still respect you Ed!). Whatever committee some guy named Flake is on did not cause this. Everyone sees the evidence – a conservative coalition is building in the democrat party. Conservatism is now winning when it comes attached to the democrats, which would have been considered ridiculous back in 2004 – before the purity wars erupted.
The reason far right conservatives are losing is they have lost the American voter. And it is not because they are not conservative enough, it is because they have been demeaning people who disagree with them marginally for years. When McCain and Bush and others put forth a reasonable compromise on immigration, people on the far right compared them to the far left which wants instant citizenship for all! This comparison was ludicrous and only demeaned those making it. America saw a radicalized, out of control, overly emotional far right and has backed away. America is backing away from conservatism under the GOP and going with conservatism under the democrats. Get a clue folks. If you love America and its people then listen to what they are saying in the voting booth. This not about pork spending and committee assignments. This the GOP losing the conservative preference to the Dems. Without broad conservatism, what does the GOP have to offer to oppose liberalism?
Update: I meant to post how Rush Limbaugh actually does the same thing has Hannity and Levin and Savage, by disparaging those ‘impure’ conservatives:
Gee, they’re just now getting it. What took ‘em so long? Did you see what happened in 2006? Folks, I am mad today. Did you see what happened in 2006? Did you see all the conservative Democrats Pelosi ran in the South then and skunked your incumbents? With what? Not McCainism. These Democrats were not running as McCain. They were running as Reagan conservatives, and that’s how they won, in Reagan conservative districts.
…
Because the Republican Party, which has sold out to the pseudoconservatives of the New York Times and the DC-New York media establishment who think that Rockefeller Republicanism and country club Republicanism is the future of the party, Ms. Pelosi, “Okay, they’re going to give that up, they’re going to give up Reagan, fine, we’ll go take over.” If she wanted to, she could take over the whole Republican Party this way. But she’s too far left and her party is too far left. But if they really wanted a huge supermajority, it’s waiting for them. Meanwhile, the Republican Party is doing everything in the world that it can to try be 25%, 30%, 40% liberal or independent for some God-knows-who-can-explain-it reason.
Well, no time out from RINO bashing it seems. I think it is delusional to claim a democrat conservative is more conservative than the GOP conservative. Greg Davis in MI (the GOP candidate) was on the far right, especially when it came to immigration. He beat out those nasty pseudoconservatives (aka, RINOs, like Rudy Giuliani). No, it was not because the democrat was more conservative – that is emotional denial.
Want to know what pisses off America? Insult their favorite hero Mayor from 9-11, Rudy Giuliani, as the ‘true’ conservatives did when he ran for President. Insult Vietnam War Hero Senator McCain. Backstab our President and demean him and his views. That is the GOP brand of conservatism in the eyes of many Americans, and they have had their fill of it. They are now voting for lower key, less volatile conservatives, ones not beholding to the conservative chattering class. Yes, the Blue Dogs have to co-exist with Pelosi’s liberals and fight the battle for conservatism inside the Dem party, but they are not beholding to conservative talk radio and others who try to push more conservatism than some are ready to accept. Did it ever occur to the far right that Americans are really smart and know how to get around obstacles? Want to get the far right talking heads out of the picture? Put in Blue Dogs who can run free of the far right.
Something to think about while this disaster unfolds.
Update: This article at the Politico is especially brutal, but it also notes the other fallout of the GOP conservative movement losing ground to a Democrat conservative movement – you lose campaign dollars. I fail to see how Rush Limbaugh expects to garner support for GOP conservatism by bashing pseudoconservatives and conservative independents like he did the other day? When these impure voters vote for Blue Dogs, the tend to take their campaign contributions with them. Not sure how belittling them is a winning strategy???? Call me naive.
93 Responses to “When Will The “True Conservatives” Wake Up To The Damage They Did?”
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I think Fred Thompson represented the conservative point of view the best. I think he is the kind of conservative that Rush talks about.
The idea of conservatism is to state a principal and show how it strengthen the country and brings out our best.
On immigration Fred said, “secure our borders, open out doors”. It is easy to see the difference in approach with Freds statement, then using the same principal but stating, we are a country of laws, how dare these people sneak in and expect us to take care of them bla,
bla , bla, Michelle Milkin, Tancredo etc.
I think Fred Thompson represented the conservative point of view the best. I think he is the kind of conservative that Rush talks about.
The idea of conservatism is to state a principal and show how it strengthens the country and brings out our best.
On immigration Fred said, “secure our borders, open out doors”. It is easy to see the difference in approach with Freds statement, then using the same principal but stating, we are a country of laws, how dare these people sneak in and expect us to take care of them bla,
bla , bla, Michelle Milkin, Tancredo etc.
Kathie, I agree with you. But Fred’s nuance was missed because of something bigger going on. Once he linked himself to the Tancredo bus his hopes went down the tube. I was listening as he spent day after day on Hannity’s show. And each day he lost ground.
OK AJ about Fred, I don’t remember Fred on the Hannity show, but I’m trying to demonstrate that conservatism in and of itself does not need to be compromised but the thought needs to show how the principal can bring out our best as a people and a country. That is what Reagan was so good at. Bush is quite good also but he is not a teacher, and Rush would say that conservatism needs to constantly taught, shown how we all benefit from a principal.
Sorry Kathie, I was not clear. I really do agree with you!
Now if the far right can show some humility and respect who knows what could happen. So far they are only digging their hole deeper, meaning it will take more and more time to dig their way back out and gain back the respect and support of American.
But you are right, conservatism is worthwhile, and worth saving. One way is to go through this painful purge and rejection by the voters. The other way is for the far right to get on with the mea culpas and apologies right now.
AJ in your first paragraph you say conservatism is being rejected then say in the first three contests voters elected conservative Democrats. Some sort of pretzel logic going on there.
Fact is conservative ideas continue to prevail even when Dems try it , it is failure to stick to those principals that has doomed the Republican party and when the electorate sees the Dems do it just to get elected the electorate will be furious with them also.
Conservative candidates failed in the GOP Presidential primary because the primary was front loaded to liberal, primarily Eastern states where independents and Dems picked the GOP candidate for us . This is the fault of the Republican National Committe for not setting better rules for their primaries. Leadership there is horrible. As is communication from our commander in chief (God Love and Protect Him) and congressional leaders.
Throw them all out, institute term limits, take away their earmarks and lucrative pension plans and return government to the people , by and for the people. Right now I have taxation without representation!
Agree with all the above. I am a Bush conservative.
And I love this statement, AJ:
“Insult their favorite hero Mayor from 9-11, Rudy Giuliani, as the ‘true’ conservatives did when he ran for President. Insult Vietnam War Hero Senator McCain. Backstab our President and demean him and his views. That is the GOP brand of conservatism in the eyes of many Americans, and they have had their fill of it. ”
The right went too far with the Dubai deal, Harriett Miers, and Immigration, and their attacks on the president, who btw, brought them to the White House. Prior to that, they had NO ONE who could do that, except a conservative DEMOCRAT.
I just wonder what the excuse is for why Hunter and Tancredo did not win the primary. Was someone forcing voters not to vote for these two?
I got sick of the Bush bashing from the far right long ago, especially when I heard Malkin call the president stupid on national TV. And Ann Coulter, where do I begin with her comments about the president?!
The far right has become the thing they hate. I know they are fighting for their place at the table. Actually they seem to want to OWN the table….And I do love Rush and Sean in many ways. It’s just not all or nothing, right guys?!
Sorry, dhunter, I don’t agree with all of your post…:)
The money did not flow to the conservatives or they ran a bad campaign. And, let’s face it, far right conservatives could not put their support behind any one candidate up front. Why didn’t THEY run a candidate? It seems like they prefer to be AGAINST instead of FOR.
And dhunter, 24/7 media bashing blocks one’s message. Look at hil. She gets no respect from the media. The media is corrupt. The president could have spent his entire presidency focusing on the media with Madison Avenue talking points. Or, as he did, he focused on getting results, real results for the long haul, not just media hype to gain points in a poll.
And the far right would have fared very well if they had followed the President’s lead for the past 8 years. And given him the respect he EARNED (but they were too arrogant to see, imho.)
I also want to exclude Rush from much of my commentary because I think he was basically fair to the President. Others were publically not so fair.
ivehadit,
You are correct. There was no reason to be so caustic on Bush just because some on the right disagreed with him – it just happens these people only know caustic, they don’t know solutions.
And I was a bit surprised by Rush’s comments, I felt they were out the norm for him. He admits he was off because of some anger. Rush has been fairer than most to Bush and therefore kept the respect of the coalition, not the Judahs who have knee-capped our President politically. He could have saved the party from a lot of this if they left him intact.
And in fact, if they would throw their support behind him so his polls go up (and make some news) and have confidence in Iraq (and move polls and make news) then the news would be how the GOP is making gains while the Dem Congress is in the tank.
But doing the smart thing seems to be too much to ask right now.
AJ, you gonnna ban me if I make note of your obsession again?
If, for no other reason, the far right should put their support behind the President now FOR THE TROOPS.
dhunter,
Read slower. I said Americans are dumping the ‘true conservatives’ of Hannity and Levin and the far right and going with Democrat conservatives when given the choice (now three times this has happened). When it is a choice between ‘true conservatives’ on the far right and more center-right conservatives (like McCain) the GOP primary voters where clear – stay away from the fringes.
yeah, conservatism is still preferred, just not that of the far right. They have succeeded in repulsing everyone else right of center, who are voting anyone but the far right.
That’s the point. The far right is hemorrhaging support and taking the GOP down with it.
Ask America why they don’t like Bush and they say he is a fringe radical extremist. Ask conservative why they don’t like Bush and they will say he is a closet liberal. Who is out of touch? I think I know.
The conservative movement has become a no, no gated community of those trying to escape from the world. Take my football and go home. America likes conservative solutions to problems but more than that, they want solutions. All conservatives give is no, no, no (see all the mess that deregulation made of the financial markets. The largest banks proved totally ineffective at basic risk management) America doesn’t trust liberal solutions because they still remember the 1960s and 1970s but those supporting common sense solutions capture the market place.
Unfortunately both fringes don’t realize this. The only difference is that the liberal fringe sees gov’t programs as incremental progress toward their goals while the conservatives give up, don’t vote and go home. And then bitch about the gov’t they wind up which.
75,
Its news and all over the place. No one is forcing you to face your demons. You don’t want to read the posts don’t read the posts.
But it is news. Even Karl Rove ‘obsessed’ about it on the WSJ today.
My demons are your demons, AJ…and our country’s for that matter. As for “news”, I will take Rush over the MSM any day of the week.
I can feel the problem personally – I’ve been a registered republican in every election, but right now I feel closer to the conservative dems, provided they support the war, than I do to any of the radical republicans. And I have to ask – all these years in power, what did you do? Nothing.
Now, the problem with Dems is that with them I know we will get even worse. So, I see my choices between those who will do nothing and those who will do tragically bad things in the name of “doing something.” I know which way I have to go, but…
It’s really hard to get pumped up with the rally cry of “OK, boys, lets go do NOTHING!!! 3 cheers for Nothing! Hooray! Hooray! Hooray!!!”
nope, doesn’t work for me.
That’s a frightening thought, WWS.
I would have thought all of us had learned our lesson about the Democrats by now.
Buck up and keep the faith.
WWS, I am with you. The far right is nothing.
And 75, we don’t need to buck up. The far right needs to screw their heads on better and realize they are not the force they thought they were. You want allies? Start with the mea culpas – and make them good.
Gee, AJ…it sounds like you don’t want even positive reinforcement from me. That’s a shame. I guess I will stay home election day since you don’t need me.
Mark Levin, in particular, reminds me of a poster I once saw:
Rush, Levin, Hannity, et al, are in this for ratings. Others also seek to perpetuate the issues, particularly if there is little chance of their solution being enacted into law any time soon.
first whining, now pouting – that what a ‘true’ conservative means???
Poor ‘ol true conservatives, no one admires them anymore.
Might as well have a pity party for them.
Drat – the image didn’t show.
It was from a Demotivators poster (from Despair.com), specifically, Consulting:
If you’re not a part of the solution, there is good money to be made in prolonging the problem.
I think that some people have decided their bottom can improve if the GOP is in the minority and out of power, and issues like immigration fester.
Nice try, AJ.
We are treated to your whining and pouting everyday…with much entertainment, I might add!
AJ,
Perhaps you missed it, but both parties appear to be splintering just now, just along different fault lines.
Rodney,
No I did not miss it. But there are differences. The Dems have ended their purity wars and have fielded conservative dems – and it is working.
The GOP is not fielding liberals! Conservatism is the natural position of America. Only the far right could screw up so badly as to lose conservatism to the dems. But hey, they wanted to lose ugly and so they have!
The lamest part is the whining and pouting about how the world is so mean and no one understands them. What they don’t get is everyone understands them all too well. When they don’t get their way they call you a traitor and compare you to the most extreme liberals.
Now that their tantrums have backfired they are all confused, and blaming others again. They do the blame thing really well. They can’t lead worth a crap.
Things look bad for the GOP in the next election.
In the UK, things look bad for the leftist labor party
of Tony Blair and Gordon Brown that have been in power
for a decade and a half. What gives?
One country is tired of the Right while another similar country
is tired of the Left.
Those of us who write blogs or hang about commenting on them
probably don’t represent most of the electorate who aren’t all that
interested. Events only get their attention when they slap them
hard across their lives. Most of the time that doesn’t happen,
with the huge exception of 9-11 or in the UK their subway
bombings. Plots that are foiled don’t really register. Britain foiled
a plan to blow up multiple airplanes simultaneously over
American cities. Noted but didn’t sink in.
For most of the electorate, they want their daily lives to improve
year on year and naively they hope that the politicians will help
them with that, and usually they are disappointed no matter which
party is in charge. Disappointment results in decade long
oscillations – whichever party holds office gradually loses it’s
luster and eventually it gets chucked out.
Once this starts to happen, reversing the cycle is pretty well
impossible.
Gordon Brown in the UK has reached all time lows in his
approval rating and nothing he tries to do helps. Yanking most
of his trooops out of Basra didn’t win him any praise, he found
that electorate just shrugged and thought “now what?”. The Brits
are fed up with $10/gal gasoline and ever increasing taxes,
but mostly the Nu-Labor project is seen as “tired”.
Once a cycle flip occurs, the newcomers have only a very
short time to earn their keep – unless some big event happens
to distract everyone.
I think this is happening to the Conservatives in our country.
I don’t believe the average voter is outraged by the government
not granting amnesty to illegal immigrants. That is just not
an everyday issue – unless you either are an illegal immigrant
or you employ a few of them.
People want their lives to get magically better. It’s now time
to believe in change – so says Obama. In that song by
The Who – they sing “Don’t get fooled again”
I caution against doing too much soul searching. I think
this normal cycle will tip both houses of Congress into
democrat control and they will achieve exactly nothing.
The one real danger is electing our first Arab president
who will let the terrorists of Iraq, Pakistan, and Iran live to
fight another day. That is what they WILL do.
Call me alarmist because I predict that if Iran is not stopped
then it’s atomic bombs will detonate in several of our largest
cities within Obama’s first term. No one can predict what will
happen after that. President Bush can still put a stop to that
perhaps in November and December.
Dave M,
Buck up and keep the faith.
You too, AJ.
AJ,
In what way, shape, or form is McCain a Conservative?
Freedom of Speech? Nope.
Rational Approach to “Global Warming”? Nope.
Reduced size and scope of Government? Nope.
War on Terror? Better than the Democrats (faint praise that).
I can’t get worked up about that title “Conservative”.
OK – we have a maverick vs. a hard core leftist.
I’m going to vote for the maverick, because that’s not as bad
as voting for the hard core leftist.
When will people realize that Global Warming isn’t a real issue? It’s made up and there are any facts to support it. Just read some of AJ’s posts on the issue.
Dave M,
I agree with most of what you have to say. But both houses of Congress are already in Dem control and they aren’t doing much with their power. Well, other than pissing off Americans.
Rodney,
If you don’t accept McCain as part of the conservative coalition then your coalition will be so small it will be useless.
Don’t ask if McCain is a conservative. He connects more to the conservatives and has decided to work with and for them. He calls himself conservative (as I once did). He is just not a wild ideologue.
By asking the question you are testing for purity to your own standards. That is the mistake. If you ask and then denigrate then you have compounded your mistake.
The more conservatives candidates lost. They lost because Americans are dumping ‘true’ conservatives. Don’t worry about who is purer, worry about who carries the most support to (a) oppose liberals and (b) make PROGRESS on conservative issues. The only alternative is to (a) let liberals win and (b) lose ground on conservative issues.
If you want perfection and purity stop looking for it in politics. That is not what it is about, it is not what democracy is about.
“The Dems have ended their purity wars and have fielded conservative dems – and it is working.
The GOP is not fielding liberals!”
These two sentences are very revealing AJ. They tell me exactly where the political center is in your world. Evidently it is somewhere to the left of Hill and Mr. Hussein. Hmmmm, No wonder you think all of us NORMAL people are ‘far right’.
Do me a favor AJ, look up into the heavens and tell me, how many suns do you see up there?
Dave M,
Voting for the lesser of two weasels is never particularly palatable.
Crazy,
The rational approach to “Global Warming” is to scoff and move on. As regards Congress, the Democrats have but slim majorities at the moment. If they enjoy larger majorities and the Exectutive branch, things will probably go to hell faster than you can find a handbasket.
I’ve endorsed McCain. I’ll vote for him. I’ll not give him a bloody cent, and for sure and certain will back a primary challenger come the next Presidential Primary season.
Stop trying to read minds Bikerken. You suck at it.
Again, people confuse my observations with my preferences or beliefs. Clearly a sign that those confounded are not engineers or scientists who are well practiced at observing objectively.
Case in point. The Dems back in the 1990’s raged with their purity wars and would not allow Bob Casey, pro-life dem, to speak at their convention. Now the dems are openly recruiting (and highlighting) their pro-life Blue Dog democrat candidates.
It’s an observation dude, get over it. This let them take on conservatives. I do not prefer this. As I said I prefer the Reagan-Bush conservatism from the GOP. I wrote that in the post above – pay attention and stop imagining things.
I did not want McCain (though in many people’s minds my choice of Giuliani was not much better). I don’t prefer him, he is what we have to fight liberalism and keep the progress the current President Bush has achieved.
And this is why emotional reactions can never out perform objective calculus and strategies. You may want with all your heart for 2+2 = 5. You may want it so bad you demean and attack others who tell you differently. You may have a few like minded friends who believe as you d0.
But in the end the one who objectively determines 2+2=4 and moves on to fight real battles will win the day over those stuck on 2+2=5. As I said, my observations determine my plan forward, regardless of my preferences or desires.
Don’t confuse facts with desires or intentions. And please stop pretending you know me. You haven’t a clue about me.
will some of the Rush fans here please explain to me what good they think Rush is doing by constantly bashing McCain at this point in the process? Seems to me he could at least wait until he McCain is possibly elected president. Unless of course Rush would rather see an Obama presidency. I find that hard to beleive so what’s up with him?
Satrist, Rush isn’t bashing McCain.
ok. what is he doing?
Careful Biker, dissent will not be tolerated!
I really find it quite hilarious that anyone would think that AJ is left of Hillary Clinton. Wow, now that is not possible at all. My father is very good at observing from both sides of an issue. Its the scientist in him. And when he makes an observation and a prediction about something he is almost always correct. Whether it falls in line with his preferences and beliefs or not. It helps if you just read the words and not try to assume that there is writing implied between the lines. Might make everyone\’s heads cool off a bit.
But thanks for the laugh, Bikerken
Me thinks thou doth protesteth too much!
Forgive me for pointing out the obvious, but the Dems are running the two most Marxists candidates they have in history! The pubs are running the most left wing candidate that they ever have. And then you say, “The Dems have ended their purity wars and have fielded conservative dems – and it is working. The GOP is not fielding liberals!” I would say you’re statement is 180 degrees out of whack!
I wasn’t trying to read your mind AJ, you’re pretty much an open book. I was just pointing out that what you seem to consider left, right and center pretty much explains why all regular conservatives are “far” right.
BTW Bikerken,
Only an idiot would look into the sun …
A soon to be blind idiot.
I guess the entire country looks left wing from the fringe, yeah?
Thanks for proving my point. Did you read the post????
You come blundering in here and do EXACTLY what I posted the far right does when confronted with their own failures – they dump on everyone else! Good gawd man, someone is going to think you are my sock puppet I use to illustrate what’s wrong with the far right.
Now THAT would be insulting. I could do a much better job I would think.
Satrist, sorry for the delay but some of my responses are getting eaten by the server (or maybe it’s my own pilot error, who knows).
Rush’s main concern right now is dragging the Dem primary out as long as possible, Operation Chaos. When a caller asked him last week why he wasn’t more supportive of McCain he replied, “because it’s not time yet.” I would submit what you consider “bashing” is in fact, constructive criticism.
AJ, you sure have been salty lately. What gives?
It is my opinion that we lost the house in 2006 because of low turnout. In elections between presidential elections the turn out is historically low. The dems went all out and the republicans didn’t. The republicans won in 2002 because of 9/11 and we knew we had better vote. But it is hard for the electorate to keep their eye on the ball. They got lazy and we lost the house. I don’t know what will happen in November. If the party is as fractured as AJ says then we are screwed. I find it very hard to believe the American people (even democrats) would elect a muslim and/or black separatist America hating marxist named Barack Hussein Obama to be president of this country. Have the democrats lost their minds?
As for the far right all a candidate has to do is mention his deep religionist beliefs and they will vote for him i.e. Huckabee. I see far too many Obama signs in my town. Perhaps the word hasn’t gotten out that his religion is a sham. As P.T. said “there’s a sucker born every minute”. And anyone who believes ANTHING a politician says he will do is nuts. They will say anything, be anything and do anything to win. Winning is the game and losing is not an option.
75,
Bad mood I guess. Nothing to complain about – really.
AJ,
“The reason far right conservatives are losing is they have lost the American voter. And it is not because they are not conservative enough, it is because they have been demeaning people who disagree with them marginally for years. When McCain and Bush and others put forth a reasonable compromise on immigration, people on the far right compared them to the far left which wants instant citizenship for all! This comparison was ludicrous and only demeaned those making it.”
…
“Want to know what pisses off America? Insult their favorite hero Mayor from 9-11, Rudy Giuliani, as the ‘true’ conservatives did when he ran for President. Insult Vietnam War Hero Senator McCain. Backstab our President and demean him and his views. That is the GOP brand of conservatism in the eyes of many Americans, and they have had their fill of it.”
Wow, just wow. I can see that you are of the same mind as the Obama campaign in that if we question him or disagree with him we must be “racist” only in your case if a “true” conservative questions McCain, Guiliani or anyone who doesn’t have the same ideology then they must be “demeaning, insulting, backstabbing and ludicrous.”
You’re so willing to demand that conservatives compromise …I just wonder if you’re willing to compromise on say stem cell research or the War on Terror…I didn’t think so.
Oh, and about that immigration reform…about a month ago I asked where in the proposed legislation it protected the laws that were to be enforced from judges and attorneys finding loopholes and getting around those laws. I really would like to know as I could not find it and it would matter to me…still nothing. Is it really there?
Barbara, milque-toast, wishy-washy, middle of the road, bi-partisan candidates will always produce low turnout. I can only hope that the Dems are just that hated that we can steal one. The minute McCain became the leading candidate…the republican party was in trouble. And it will continue to be even if he wins. Americans want bold action to do what’s right, not compromise with what’s wrong. This is 1992 all over again.
Buck up and keep the faith, AJ.
Whippet1,
Because I can see how the far right loses to the conservative democrats in three races means Americans are voting for conservative dems and not the far right makes me like Obama???
Funny. You think comparing me to Obama is going to raise my respect for you folks on the far right or dump it in the gutter??
And you folks wonder why no one wants to vote you into office anymore?
Let me ask you something, AJ, if I may. What do you hope to gain by this continued assault on conservatives? Just how do you expect them to rally to McCain for you come election day?
AJ,
You know I didn’t compare you to Obama, I compared your tactic of describing conservatives as demeaning, backstabbing, ludicrous, insulting, etc when they criticize issues or people that you agree with exactly what the Obama campaign does when they are criticized. My comments had nothing to do with why the far right loses or not and you know it.
And me far right? LOL! If you only knew…see…I have criticized you and now I’m one of the far right!!! You make my case!!!!
Oh, and that immigration information?
75,
He expects conservatives to do what he refuses to do.
75,
And I have no problem if AJ doesn’t want to compromise on his own beliefs, as a matter of fact I would hope he wouldn’t. But he wants others to conform to his…Yet he complains when the far right does the same.
I just don’t understand how he expects his daily assaults to attract conservatives? I mean, we know he thinks they are marginalized but does he honestly think McCain doesn’t need them? or want them?
75,
He has said as much…what I don’t get is why a guy who is pretty conservative on most issues holds so much contempt for conservatives in general.
His moderate posters can disagree til their hearts content, but let a conservative further to the right disagree and you may as well be Truthy! As a matter of fact he had more tolerance for Truthy. He just doesn’t see it.
Whip, it isn’t going to matter anyway. If AJ’s right, McCain wipes out the Dems in the election and we have a “centrist” president willing to work with the left. If he’s wrong, McCain wins by a small margin and works with the left or he loses and Obama leads the left. Either way, our party and country are both screwed until the mods get their heads out of their asses.
This is no big deal. America goes through this time and time again regardless of whether it’s an election, a war, or some sort of social program. We are a nation cursed to live in the moment and forget the past, regardless of what the lesson is. No biggie…it just means we have another conservative revolution down the road a little further than now.
I have seen a lot of conservatives trying to talk themselves into letting Obama win. After all, since McCain is not really one of them there is no difference.
And whippet I don’t think AJ is attacking anyone. I don’t. Yesterday Mark Levin said that conservatives should abandon the GOP and McCain. That means Democrats win. And that is okay with Levin Iguess. And yet AJ is the attacker?
These guys do nothing but bitch about everything all the time and when they can’t win elections, they blame everyone but themselves.
no, it is not AJ who is attacking people.
Anyone who can look at McCain and Obama and not which is one is more likely to be fiscally conservative, appoint conservative judges, be prolife and wage the war on Terror, does not need to be lecturing other people about what is right and wrong and liberal and conservative and blah blah blah.
I think the truth is that a lot of well known right wing pundits and activists are afraid of losing more influence with someone like McCain in office. They prefer someone like Bush, who they can stab in the back when it suits them. There is your problem. I voted for Bush and I rarely even listen to these people anymore. They want to analyze everyone else when they need to be analyzing themselves.
What is all this bunk about engineers and scientists having some special ability to accurately read situations better than others? Or more objectively? Pleeeeaassseee! I call that elitism at its finest.
Anyone who cares about politics is passionate and that passion is difficult to overcome whether you have a science degree or any other degree for that matter or none at all.
I believe the bulk of the global warming fanatics are scientists, correct? Or how about the global cooling fanatics of the 70’s? I guess those embryonic stem cell researchers have been promoting proven, objective statistics over the years, right? And conservatives are the ones with the egos?
75:
There are two choices this fall: The Democrat or the Republican. The Democrat will probably be Obama and McCain will be the Republican. There is not going to be another viable alternative. And since there will probably be a Democratic majority no matter who wins the White House, the president will have to work with the Democrats.
I think some far right folks have convinced themselves that this is not going to happen. They are living in a fantasy world.
Terrye,
You and AJ have been as guilty of attacking others with opposing beliefs as Levin, Malkin or anyone else you accuse of doing so. You need to choose your words wisely. If you disagree is it an attack? If it isn’t for you then it isn’t for them. It goes both ways.
“They want to analyze everyone else when they need to be analyzing themselves”
And so do you.
I do not think that Republicans were in trouble with McCain. In truth I think he is the only Republican who can win right now. And maybe conservatives need to ask themselves why that is so, rather than just bitching and moaning and whining and attacking the man for having the temerity to actually WIN the nomination.
Whippet:
Your lame moral relativism does not work here.
So I need to analyze myself? Why?I am not the one who is thinking about sitting out the next election and letting Barack Obama win just because I am pissed.
Conservatives are pissed that they can not win elections anymore. Rather than ask themselves why that might be, they go after McCain or Bush or someone else.
So spare me the you are no better than they are when they threaten to sit home because Juan McAmnesty stole the nomination and plans to open the borders and sell us out to Mexico bla bla bla.
I hear that kind of stuff every day, and worse.
Terrye,
” I hear that kind of stuff every day, and worse.”
I’m sure you do because it fits your narrative to well. Concentrate on those few and lump every conservative in with them…that’s your way.
No Terrye, no need for you to do any soul searching…when you can blame others so easily. It must be an amazing feeling to always be right.
Blaming people for bitching and moaning as you bitch and moan.
Unbelievable.
Moral relativism? lol!
Whippet1 asks:
“what I don’t get is why a guy who is pretty conservative on most issues holds so much contempt for conservatives in general.”
after a tirade by the far right when I simply pointed out they are losing elections, which means they are losing support.
Gee Whippet1, do you think I hold contempt for the far right (not conservatives because – I are one!) because, like Savage and Levin, they have been acting contemptible?
LOL! Actually, since they are losing support I don’t feel contempt. I simply keep pointing out how they can fix their problem with the voters – but they don’t like what they have to do to fix it so people lay into me for the mess.
Typical.
whippet:
Oh grow up. There is Mark Levin, a supposed leader in the conservative community literally calling for conservatives to leave the Republican party because so many Republicans are not pure enough, not good enough for them. They are the ones laying down the ultimatums.
They are the ones who seem to think that few years with Obama as President is not big deal if it teaches the Republicans a lesson. And of course it will be good for ratings. Lots of things to bitch about.
However, the simple truth is that any conservative who sits back and lets some lefty like Obama win without even trying to stop it, does not need to be doubting anyone else’s integrity. That is what is unbelievable.
And by the way whippet you bitch and moan too all the time. So why are you bitching and moaning about someone else bitching and moaning?
I think the thing that bothers me the most is the soldiers. The idea that those young men and women gave their lives in defense of a cause that is less important to people than some silly partisan bullshit. McCain would do his best to see to it that their sacrifice was not in vain. I guess that doesn’t matter to the pure conservative anymore. They seem to be too pissed about the fact that McCain does not kiss their asses enough.
AJ,
“Actually, since they are losing support I don’t feel contempt.”
Yes, of course you don’t feel contempt…since they are LOSING support. Very telling…gloating maybe, but never contempt, right? Or is that your rationalization for it? They lost because of it, so now that you feel that you’re on the winning end you can act in the same manner?
We have been down this road before and you’ll never see that you are acting just as they are. Like I said, passion always overrides common sense.
It isn’t about whether you are right or wrong. I was irritated by some on the far right for the same reasons you are and I told you so when I first started posting here. But I have come to see that I was more wrong about you than them. They were blustering about things that angered them and made that very clear. You, on the other hand chose to use them as cover to bluster about what you believe all the while blaming them.
I rarely listen to Rush and rarely go to Malkin’s site. I came here every day hoping for rational discussion of differing reasonable viewpoints. (I have to put reasonable in there to cover the unreasonable Truthie/Soothie/Norm viewpoints.) What I have found is condensention, mocking, and contempt for those who see a few things differently. That is no different than what can be found at Malkin’s site. Each simply justifies it by claiming to be less offensive than the other. Both are offensive. Both are tirades. Both are contemptible. That’s pretty sad when such small differences detract from what otherwise are some really great thoughts and ideas and common ground at both sites.
Terrye,
Get off your high horse…Conservatives will vote for McCain BECAUSE of the troops. If you spent as much time bashing your former party of anti-American troop haters as you do the few “pure”(whatever that is) conservatives who choose not to vote you might have a valid argument.
What is obvious is that conservatives aren’t kissing your ass enough and that’s what really bothers you.
And you consider major differences of opinion “silly partisan bullshit.”? I would think not if it came to one of your major differences of opinion, like say the War on Terror and all those heroic soldiers who we all want supported?
Terrye,
And as for Levin? Do I see the pot calling the kettle black? It’s o.k. for you to leave your party but he can’t leave his? What makes you so high and mighty that you can make those choices but somehow he isn’t allowed. Do as I say not as I do…that’s the mantra of your former party isn’t it? Or is it your former party, because you sound as if you’re still one of their charter members.
“And by the way whippet you bitch and moan too all the time. So why are you bitching and moaning about someone else bitching and moaning? ”
Left by Terrye on May 15th, 2008
Yes, I’m bitching and moaning about listening to you excuse your actions by bitching and moaning……….oh, forget it. It’s like talking to a brick wall.
Hey, Terrye and AJ,
Diane Feinstein snuck in an illegal alien amnesty measure to the Iraq War supplemental bill. Are you happy now?
Whippet1,
You still slamming conservatives who don’t agree with you? I mean I know I was right when I said the far right was killing the party, but you don’t have to go this far in supporting my points!
And no, I was for comprehensive reform, not amnesty. I know, from the rightward fringes they all look the same, but they are very different.
The real question is whether all the right wingers who gave the issue over to a dem led congress and gave them this window to put through real amnesty are happy? Fact is they are the ones who killed off the only option out there to a liberal bill.
You hypochondriacs are the ones who should be proud – this is what you worked so hard for!
Whippet:
Why are you asking me if I am happy? I am not Diane Feinstein.
And Whippet if you think there are not conservatives threatening to sit and home and let Obama win then you are not listening to these people rant and rave.
You know what the problem is? This morning over at powerline the first post is another one bitching about Lindsay Graham. Not Feinstein or any other Democrat. Conservatives spend too much time attacking other Republicans and too little time going after their real opponents.
And btw, once Levin and his kind help Obama get elected, he will put in whatever kind of amnesty bill he wants and there will be nothing conservatives can do about it.
After all, they will have purged their party of so many people there won’t be enough votes left for a filibuster.
That kind of makes me wonder who the RINOs really are.
Geesh…you can’t shut down your computer for even one evening. I see the hounds have been released.
It takes a special kind of stubbornness and denial to blame conservatives for a centrist candidate. What AJ and Terrye are admitting to here, is that they have been so put off by the delivery of the conservative message that THEY have moved to the center. Again, they are shooting the messenger for the message. So it comes down to one of two things, either they are naive and are rejecting conservatism because it’s delivered harshly or they aren’t on board with the idealogy anyway. I assume they are not on board with conservatism. To say the other would mean they would have to admit to being duped into judging the messenger rather than the message. AJ, Terrye? What you say? Is it the messengers or the message?
AJ,
I’m a right-winger and a hypochondriac now!!! People who know me personally would be laughing their butts off right now! Name- call away it just proves the point I’ve been tring to make. In politics it’s all the same but each side thinks they’re different.
And Terrye,
I thought this was America…Excuse anyone who disagrees with you or Lindsey Graham, McCain, etc, etc. So what does that make you when you disagree with someone…oh yeah, I forgot, you’re allowed.
Let me submit this little exercise to show the absurdity of AJ’s and Terrye’s ‘centrist’ points.
We are being asked to believe AJ and Terrye (AJ, of course, has a leg up of the two) or to believe some of the brightest conservative minds of our time, Mark Levin, Ann Coulter, Rush Limbaugh, William Buckley, Brent Bozell, Thomas Sowell, Charles Krauthammer, Walter Williams, and on, and on, and on infinum.
C’mon mods…wake up.
75,
First off, stop with the ‘mods’. I am an independent. If you think I am moderate just keep going kid and you will see how good moderate feels.
Second, I only claim to see what is happening in the voting booths, which is the far right getting pummeled for being crass, and being more crass in response. They’re doing a great job of circling down the toilet of extremism.
3rd, we only need to out think folks like you to fight the better fight. and gain the power to enact (while the far right has the power to pout).
Hmmm – I’m good with this. Especially since it has been working as the far right implodes in a fit of anger and frustration.
BTW – do you think I would poke the far right to explode if I was thinking there would be reason to work together in the end of all this? I mean I did try the “please don’t do this, we can talk, we can find a solution” before the debacle. But if I felt that the best way to neuter the far right was to make sure they kept showing their true colors, maybe I would stop trying to compromise and start trying to win the day….
Did that ever occur to you folks, that us lowly impure conservatives would actually engage in the fight the far right started with every intent of vanquishing the opposition?
Geez, if you folks call for a purity war, maybe you should have thought about the fact (1) the centrist would certainly take up the challenge and (2) could win. food for thought as you contemplate your next lame attempt to insult the only voting block who can give you the far right the support it needs to be part of (not in charge of) a conservative majority housed inside a GOP caucus.
LOL! John McCain is a great example of the far right showing everyone up…..
AJ, I see you are sensitive and defensive again today…but to clarify…I use the term mods to mean everyone who’s left of conservative but not a leftist Democrat. Whether they are independents, centrists, moderates, whatever…it isn’t meant as an insult. Clearly you took it as one, though. What do you suppose that means?
But that aside, I noticed you didn’t answer any of my questions. They were not rhetorical insults, AJ. So again, I will ask.
First, is it your opinion that the far right has alienated American voters because of their passion or their conservative message in general? This is significant because you’ve claimed to be an independent conservative but to reject all conservatives because you feel they the insult you (or the American voter), tells us a lot about you and the American voter.
Secondly, are you asking us to reject these brilliant writers based solely on your opinion of this election because of their passion or for their actual conservative knowledge vis-a-vis yours and Terryes? Again, what makes more sense to you?
aj,
“I mean I did try the “please don’t do this, we can talk, we can find a
solution” before the debacle.” Oh, really…you’ve been oh so kind in response to their over-the-top rhetoric haven’t you? Yeah, right.
And I’m also getting pummeled in the voting booth and I’m not far right – nor are or were any of my candidates but since I have disagreed with you on this issue now I am far right. Keep adding all of us conservatives to that far-right label you like to throw out and maybe you’ll find the numbers to justify your argument.
Where is that information in the immigration bill again? The one that protects the proposed new laws from interpretation by the courts?
75,
For conservatives:
Disagreement = purity war, ranting, raving, fringe, vanquishing the opposition, crass, toilet of extremism, etc., etc.
For independents:
Disagreement = fighting the BETTER fight, being more observant, being objective, compromising, pointing out the obvious, etc., etc.
Get it 75?
Whip, oh I get it.
I can’t get a straight answer out of either of them. AJ will probably take that as an insult but it sounds like he’s ready to boot me anyway.
Forgive me but just how bad should a lemming feel if he’s booted out of the line to the cliff?
Ooh, I left insulting out of my previous list of conservative disagreement definitions!
LOL! 75 and Whippet1,
The reason I keep you around is you prove my point and make me look good in comparison.
trust me, I would no more boot you than Soothie – you all serve a purpose.
AJ, it’s at least nice to see you’ve come to your senses on that issue, anyway. Baby steps, I guess…
75,
What are you talking about now 75? If you think I ‘came to my sense’ it simply means you deluded yourself again and misunderstood.
AJ, your decision not to boot me.
“The reason I keep you around is you prove my point and make me look good in comparison.”
Sure, if calling people names and labeling them as “true”, “pure” or right-wing conservatives when you have no idea if they are or not just because they happen to disagree with you on an issue or two makes you look good in comparison then I guess you would think you look pretty good.
Wow, Whippet. I appreciate that you are firmly in my corner but come up for air occasionally!