Jul 02 2008
Water Boarding – Using Reflexive Responses To Instill Panic
Waterboarding is not ‘torture’ in my mind. Torture should define the inflicting of real injury. Thumbs screws, electrocution through car battery jumper cables, etc. Waterboarding actually taps into the body’s natural reflexive responses to drowning. Yes, it is horribly unnerving, as Christopher Hitchen’s just learned. No one likes to be helpless and controlled by others. But it is a practice that we use in our military training on our own. It has dangers (as does night time parachuting). But it does not cause permanent injury when done right, on healthy targets.
When 3,000+ lives may be on the line, I would say putting a known terrorist through some waterboarding is an unfortunate but humane option. I would not want to go through it, but then again I don’t plan to kill thousands of people.
22 Responses to “Water Boarding – Using Reflexive Responses To Instill Panic”
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I am getting more and more uncomforable with waterboarding. Also I am not sure I am too keen to now making the definition of torture as some something that occurs in physical injury and everything else that does not is not torture
At some point one man can inflict suffering that violates the intrinisc dignity of man (in fact this happens a good bit) that does is indeed an intrinisc evil.
Michael Yon in one his columns is raising valid points about the road we are on. Their seems to be great resitance in the military and I share some of their concerns.
The points in the article I also find hard getting around:
1. Waterboarding is a deliberate torture technique and has been prosecuted as such by our judicial arm when perpetrated by others.
2. If we allow it and justify it, we cannot complain if it is employed in the future by other regimes on captive U.S. citizens. It is a method of putting American prisoners in harm’s way.
From my viewpoint this has simply been used as a defining down of real torture for pure political leverage motivations.
The left hung that label on it simply because it served their purpose fully knowing that it was an unjustified label.
Now how about somebody name the last enemy we engaged with that fully 100% complied with the Geneva Conventions.
How about one even close.
I obviously understand why its use was authorized after 9/11 for 3 people. But, I personally think…such things should remain something that stays out of the realm of “legality”.
It’s like the capt that stuck a gun to prisoners heads and threatened to kill them in order to save his men that were about to be ambushed.
Its’ not legal. He did what he had to do, and he doesn’t regret it. He paid for that….but it was worth it to him to save his men.
I think there should be such authority at the highest levels for blackops, etc., things that are not “legal”….with oversight to ensure that the circumstances warrant it. Obviously, 9/11….I knew the gloves were going to come off and it was about damn time.
As far as American prisoners go…they are historically mistreated and brutalized, tortured, killed, starved, beheaded, you name it. I don’t think our treatment of prisoners has ever had any impact on that. We should treat POWs humanely because that’s who “we” are. But, if you want my advice…..shoot the f’ers while they still have the smokin AK in their hand rather than send them to Gitmo to be granted rights of a US citizen. Funny, most of the squeamish torture fanatics don’t have a problem with that (ie..killing them where they stand).
I could care less if we torture these people, really I don’t care. What I care about is that there are no attacks on American soil, troops, assets, or Americans in general. If torturing someone gets us information that saves lives, then so be it. As for the hand wringing that goes on about that it will make us no better then them, you are wrong. We are better, we try to bring peace, stability, and health to the world, they bring terror, murder, and anarchy. One simple question, if your son, daughter, wife, husband, mother, father, brother, lover, who ever were killed by a terrorist act, and you knew that we could have gotten the information that could have saved them by waterboarding someone and we didn’t who would you scream loudest at? If it came down to my kids safety and some terrorists and the Geneva Conventions you can believe we’d be using the Conventions to clean up with afterward. No one seems to have a problem with killing terrorists, but we better not inconvenience them. Does our killing terrorists make us no better then them also? Doesn’t all the good we do around the globe make us better then them? Hand wringers get your heads out of your asses, and look at real life.
scaulen
LEt me engae you on this.
First let me say how we treat the enemy( and in this case the suspected enemy because some people we capture might be innocent) does matter.
Our American POWS were treated in horrible fashion by the Germans. However one should study the intriguing history of German POW camps in America that shows the huge effect if had after the war and to our relationship.
“As for the hand wringing that goes on about that it will make us no better then them, you are wrong. We are better, we try to bring peace, stability, and health to the world, they bring terror, murder, and anarchy. One simple question, if your son, daughter, wife, husband, mother, father, brother, lover, who ever were killed by a terrorist act, and you knew that we could have gotten the information that could have saved them by waterboarding someone and we didn’t who would you scream loudest at? If it came down to my kids safety and some terrorists and the Geneva Conventions you can believe we’d be using the Conventions to clean up with afterward”
This is a very slippery slope that again to be used to justify a lot. I am very sympathtic to the extreme situations of the ticking bomb. However to allow this to become common usage will hurt AMerican more.
Michael Yon needless to say that has some credibility on this issue makes some good comments on this here
http://michaelyon-online.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=1550:on-joe-galloway&catid=34:dispatches&Itemid=55
I am tending to agree with him.
There are many of us that are a hundred percent behind our efforts that have concerns what is going on. I agree with the comments of Senator Graham of SOuth Carolina who recently said that some folks got some bad bad advice.
THis is not hand wringing but deciding what we as a nation shall tolerate and stand for in this long war on terror
So when does discomfort become torture – because that is all this is? Getting too cold, feeling sick? Music too loud?
Good grief. And to think our enemies have ever or will ever do battle with the same level of honor as we do is idiotic.
We don’t saw off people’s heads for snuff films, but that sure as hell has had not impact on al-Qaeda!
Doh!
I have no problem with the President giving an order to waterboard a terrorist.
“So when does discomfort become torture – because that is all this is? Getting too cold, feeling sick? Music too loud?
Good grief. And to think our enemies have ever or will ever do battle with the same level of honor as we do is idiotic.
We don’t saw off people’s heads for snuff films, but that sure as hell has had not impact on al-Qaeda!
Doh!”
AJ I am not living in a fantasy world. THe Germans did not treat our troops the way we treated theirs. However we not only benefited from our choice in a poltical sense but obtained a moral high ground.
THe questions you as of What is torture should be asked and pondered. I do not think that discomfort such as hot ,cold , sleep deprivation as it is normally practiced is torture
However to be quite honest when I hear Lawyers for the Govt saying as to interrogation techniques if they die you are doing something wrong makes me wonder what is going on.
Depending what is going on it also has ill effects on the people practicing it.
bigLSU
“THis is not hand wringing but deciding what we as a nation shall tolerate and stand for in this long war on terror”
Then lets put it to a vote and see what the American people think. I vote hell yeah, any means necessary seeing as the enemy we are fighting is more brutal and viscous then any we’ve seen. The people around the world who don’t respect us better fear us. Terror attacks on us happened because there was no respect, or fear.
P.S.
It is hand wringing, we are deciding if we want to take this war seriously or not, playing buy antiquated rules that the other side doesn’t follow.
Drown ‘em for all I care.
I wonder if the same people who voted against dodge ball are also against waterboarding?
So we are actually toturing our own troops now, because they are waterboarded if they go ito special ops. So should we arrest all of the Generals.
Waterboarding, temperature changes, sleep deprivation and the forms that we use on enemies should not be considered toture. They are used on our own troops everyday. This is all a left wing turd fling hoping it will stick to Bush. But if you ask people if they should do this to save people’s lives, almost all would say yes
I doubt if this technique will be used again. My understanding is that it has been deemed out of bounds. And considering the fact that it was only used on 3 people and has not been used in about 5 years…I doubt that it is really something we will see used again.
If you are being water boarded, it means they want you alive, not dead. Yes, it scares the crap out of you. Like the technique of taking a pair of prisoners on a night time helicopter ride and you tell the first one that if he doesn’t answer the question, then you will throw him out. He doesn’t talk, you toss him out. The second one talks. But since you were only 6 feet or so off the ground when you threw the first one out, he isn’t really hurt … much. But the second one doesn’t know that.
Water boarding, done correctly, causes no lasting injury. It scares one into talking. The only lasting psychological damage would be from shame maybe from having talked but it should be no worse than the psychological damage that should already be there from having some horrible terrorist act on one’s conscience and knowing one is a globally wanted criminal.
In other words, knowing one are likely going to be executed anyway once convicted by a court is probably more weighing on the mind than water bording. Hitch just doesn’t like to get his cigarette wet.
My father in law was a POW in Germany during WWII (B-17 and B-24 pilot). They used to hold “mock” executions. And then..sometimes…(specifically, if the person had a jewish last name)…there were “real” executions. He was 6′4″. He weighed 90 lbs when they were liberated by the russians. (Russian women combat troops to be exact)
They were under Geneva Conv. They recieved red cross packages occasionaly, etc., Next door to his camp, was a French resistence camp. He told me…there were people hanging from the wire daily.
it was a torture camp. Even the Germans differentiated between combatants and those who were NOT covered by Geneva (as bad as the Geneva treatment was).
The entire philosphy of the leftnuts…whether you are taking about this subject or any other…is to remove all context of the event in order to bring a moral equivolence to it that otherwise does not exist….ie., Nazi’s killed people. We killed people. Therefore…we = nazis. It’s about 2nd grade stupid, but for some reason, otherwise “educated” persons lock into it.
People like Kalid Sheik Muhammed are not “POWS” covered under Geneva. IN fact…Geneva makes particular exception for persons such as this….that they are not covered at all. Most “spys” for instance are executed. Geneva has no problem with this.
It took leftnuts in court to decide that such people should not only be afforded Geneva, but should be given US citizen rights, despite the fact that they otherwise are not covered under it because of what they do.
In that regard…and in that light…and given what the court has decided…I say…..shoot them where they stand. We may not get any more info out of them…but at least we know they wont’ be turned loose to do it again. And btw…the court has “no” problem with that whatsover.
Lastly, I would like to say….I was standing in WTC plaza on 9/11.
I crawled on my hands and knees to get out that day. I pulled somebodies guts out of my hair that day. If you asked “me”? I would gladly shove a black and decker drill through the eye socket of any one of these bastards. I’d do it myself, and I would not loose “any” sleep over it (legal or not). I think we could all agree it’s a good thing it’s not up to me. But, just in case….if anybody is reading this..and you need somebody to do such a thing (Ie. torture one of these bastards) and be libel for it…..feel free to get in touch. I’ll do it for free.
I knew a man who survived the death march in the Philippines and then managed to survive more than 3 years in a Japanese POW camp. Talk to him and you get a whole different perspective on what torture is.
If it is a matter of saving millions of American lives and property, I’d say, “Yes, waterboard”.
Waterboarding did not start here in USA. It started elsewhere.
Terrye, I think our government will do it again, given the right situation.
I’m with scaulen and crosspatch on this one. I’d say shoot the f*ckers before putting them in GITMO or on our US soil.
SCOTUS screwed up on this one.
ABC News reported that Bush adm is considering the closing of GITMO but only after the Dems decide what to do with the GITMO detainees. What do you think the Dems will do?
The Japanese, (and even the koreans/chinese) took it to a whole new level.
Here’s how they treated American POWs in Korea
http://www.b-29s-over-korea.com/POWs-In-Korean-War/images/American%20POW%20executed%20in%20Korea.jpg
I heard stories from Marines who in a pitch battle (with human wave attacks), would retake ground they lost..only to find 20 or 30 of their captured buddies shot in the head with their hands wired behind their backs (just like the image above)
Here’s the japanese treatment of “pows”
http://www.battlingbastardsbataan.com/lt.kazuki.jpg
http://www.wtv-zone.com/califPamela/memorial/pow1.jpg
This is how they searched for wounded after a battle:
http://library.thinkquest.org/10414/media/jappokey.gif
North Viets did the same
Had my wife “waterboard” me in the bathtub. Lasted about 20 seconds. Tried several times. No big deal… No nightmares, flashbacks, psychobabble…
BUT, was I ever ready to talk talk talk to avoid it again!
As for the dumb argument that one would just lie to get out of it…. Please do not insult our interrogators… Dont you think they always verify info gotten by ANY means?
Conclusion: Do it
We are really really stupid [McCain & Obama both] to not use this very short effective method of getting info
There are ways of finding things out that a person can’t hide. A human brain, for example, responds differently if it sees a face it recognizes than it does to a face it doesn’t recognize. There is nothing you can do to change that reaction because it is a part of the process of recognition itself and it can be seen and noted.
And the brain will respond differently to fear than friendship. If you recognize someone but as a threat or fear them, the brain will respond differently than if that person is a friend. Again, there is no way of hiding it.
Modern science is amazing. No need to ask someone if they recognize someone, just show them a series of pictures and see what the brain scan says.
You people are missing the forest through the trees. It is not simply an issue of whether or not waterboarding suspected terrorist is okay. It is a much broader issues as the recent documents the Senate Armed Services Committee obtain reveal.
The harsh interrogation techniques were not limited to waterboarding. The approved techniques included stress positions, exploitation of phobias, forced nudity, hooding, isolation, sensory deprivation, exposure to cold, use of dogs and sexual humiliation to name a few others. None of these techniques have previously been approved for use by the US military or interrogators. Not during WWII, the Cold War, Vietnam War, Korean War or the First Gulf War. And yet we somehow survived as a country – go figure.
The interrogation program was based on the U.S. military’s SERE training. You people fail to realize that this program is specifcially designed to train soldiers to deal with torture by an enemy that is willing to violate the Geneva Conventions. It is a program that is designed to simulate torture. These are the same techniques Bush and Co. approved for use on real prisoners.
All four branches of the military raised serious concerns about the legality of these techniques and were ignored. The FBI raised concerns about the effectiveness of these techniques and were ignored. This was not a case were the military and law enforcement agencies were all on board with these techniques.
Despite all your hypotheticals of a ticking bomb, that scenerio has never happened. You need to stop watching 24 and look at reality. These techniques were approved for use in general interrogation situations, not just the fantasy ticking bomb scenerio that you folks always use to justify torture.
You all act like there are no repercussions from using these techniques simply because terrorist would torture our soldiers. That is a overly simplistic and narrow view. Just look at the Abu Ghraib situation as one example. The release of those photos had huge repercussions on our country. It tarnished our reputation and severally hurt our international standing at a crucial time. It provided an enormous recruitment opportunity for terrorist. If it was no big deal why didn’t Bush simply respond to Abu Ghraib by saying so what? Because he knew it was a major problem for the US and he had to appear to be mortified by these actions.
That brings me to the last point, which people rarely bring up, that probably bothers me the most. We now know that the techniques the soldiers were using at Abu Ghraib were part of the approved program – forced nudity, humiliation, dogs, stress positions, water boarding – all of it. Bush and the military leadership knew that when the Abu Ghraib story came out. And yet they blamed it all on a bunch of rogue soldiers – bad apples – and sent them to prison. Keep in mind that the soldiers all claimed that they were merely following orders, but they couldn’t get access to the high-level documents proving that this was part of an approved program because it was top secret. How convenient. They sold our soldiers down the river to cover their own ass. And these are the people that you claim support our troops?
http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2008/06/18/interrogation/index.html
conman,
The approved advanced interrogation techniques were approved for use on a handful of specific prisoners who were believed to have knowledge that could disrupt a plot and/or a cell of AlQueda. Nobody was waterboarded at Abu G.
They were never techniques approved for use on any general prison populations. It was for specific cases. That’s despite some of these techniques being common knowledge to anyone who has undergone advanced training in anything from survival to escape and evasion—including contractors.
I can also tell you for sure…these techniques are not new…and were most definitely used in WWII on up.
You are certainly entitled to your opinion about classifying any of these techniques as inhumane or even torture. But, the notion that all this stuff just started during the “war on terror” and was instituted widely into general populations is about as truthful as it is to say nobody ever put Saddam and WMD in the same sentence until Bush came along.