Apr 26 2009
To Investigate Bush Or Face Up To The Delayed Economic Recovery?
The liberal Democrats in Congress have no common sense. Absolutely none. They went out on a limb when it came to winning Iraq and let emotion drive them when a small modicum of common sense could have stopped them from betting the farm America would fail.
Right now they are in a similar predicament. They have put in place massive government spending to try and turn the economy around – which cannot stimulate the economy for months to come. That is because the government is slow, bumbling, bureaucracy clogged with processes and rules. It is not nimble like the free market. It moves like a glacier while the free market flows like a river. By putting their economic cures into the wrong basket, they have set themselves on a course where we have months of declining jobs, which will continue to drag down the economy as spending and revenues slow.
So the Dems have to find some kind of distraction to take the public’s mind off their mistake. Their current plan is a witch hunt against Bush administration people, as if the personal pain of economic strife can be replaced or numbed by some DC show trial. It is a really dumb idea, but it makes THEM feel better, so therefore they will continue to do dumb things.Â
Nearly 60% of the people don’t want a witch hunt, they don’t care about what has been done. What they do care about is their future. And the only thing that will change that is to have the Dems admit they screwed up and should have put more emphasis on tax breaks for small companies. And THAT is not going to ever happen.
Americans will have no change in heart about the tactics used. Demented socialists have already made up their minds that anything associated with the WOT was bad. So what is the point in releasing more classified information that only makes the children feel better???
This is more of a smokescreen for the incompetents in charge to hide behind and a way to keep the unwashed masses ginned up.
But when the pendulum swings again I hope we have the whole Democrat party lined up for their traitorous behavior during the past 8 years and gross negligence in ruining the American economy. And then we can hold the entire MSM accountable for aiding and abetting. The only debate will be whether to cane them or just pillory them in the public square.
Kathie,
The Japanese did waterboard – same thing we did. Do some simple historical research and you will see so yourself. Here is how it is described on Wikipedia with references to the sources for these fatcs:
“During World War II both Japanese troops, especially the Kempeitai, and the officers of the Gestapo, the German secret police, used waterboarding as a method of torture. During the Japanese occupation of Singapore the Double Tenth Incident occurred. This included waterboarding, by the method of binding or holding down the victim on his back, placing a cloth over his mouth and nose, and pouring water onto the cloth.”
Does that sound familiar? I’m relying on more than just Wikipedia, but this is the best summation to show that you are not basing your argument on facts. Look it up yourself.
Kathie,
Who investigated and cleared Rumsfeld – Alberto Gonzales? Are you joking? The Bush administration withheld all of this information from public review so we are only now beginning to see the true scope and extent of this program.
I understand that people are justifiably scared of another attack and that there will be an on-going debate about some of the core issues – do the EIT methods constitute torture under US and International laws, were they effective or counter-productive, did they actually thwart any terrorist plots. I believe the more we find out the more difficult it will become to justify their use, but I guess we will all have to wait and see.
With that said, there are certain things we are just now starting to learn that I believe will make even the most strident Bush supporters hesitate as the facts become known. The two big ones that are starting to develop quite a bit of traction are the fact that: (1) as I previously said, these methods were used to get intelligence to support the Iraq/Al Qaida connection both before and after the Iraq War and therefore clearly used only to safeguard the politicians who had egg on their face after no WMDs materialized; and (2) the soldiers at Abu Ghraib were not bad apples, but rather soldiers using the same interrogation techniques that were widely used and endorsed at the highest levels. http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2009/04/22/madden/ Once people realize that Bush and other top level administrative officials sold these soldiers down the river simply for doing what they were told to do because they were too chickensh*t to publically admit the truth back then will make most Americans stomaches churn and finally dispell the myth that Bush cared about the military.
Conman, I have read your point of view and have seen it refuted.
If you want name, rank and serial, number, Obama is happy to oblige you. If standing on some theoretical high ground feels good to you, don’t complain the next time a loved one is killed, because you can be assured we are a thoroughly a moral Country. If morality in this situation floats your boat…good.
Ropes can be temporarily used to bind prisoners, which is perfectly legal under Geneva, etc., and the same ropes can be used to torture or hang someone. It’s not the item/method…it’s how it’s used and the context in which it is used.
And contrary to popular belief..Geneva does recognize that there are different contexts that can change the “rules” as they were; such as schools, churches and other common shelter for civilians in an emergency are not to be used as military targets. However, if someone uses such a building in the process of conducting war operations, its former definition ceases to exist and it becomes classified a legitimate (and legal) target.
I find the whole …lets remove the context and make random cause effect relationships to spawn a whole army of strawmen…boring.
conman:
If Bush goes to jail Pelosi should go along with him.
This is just a distraction on the part of a bunch of dishonest Democrats who want it both ways. They supported these techniques and now they want to distance themselves and demonize the Bushies.
But most Americans do not want trials or witch hunts from self serving pols.
And if soldiers die after the Obama people release those photos, those deaths will be on their heads.
And who investigated Rumsfeld? The Pentagon among others. I know that your paranoia and conspiracy minded thought process makes it necessary for you to turn Abu Ghraib into a government sponsored torture chamber, but there is nothing to back up that assertion but your own hatred.
BTW, the United States military uses water boarding in training its own troops, it would not be legal to do that if it were torture.
And you know something conman, no one died at Abu Ghraib. However the enemy in Iraq was known to use pliers and a blow torch to skin people alive, they put children into ovens on a slow roast and they raped for sport.
Now why don’t you give me some self righteous little lecture about how we are no better than they are because some soldiers at Abu Ghraib misbehaved and were put in jail for it or because some CIA operative got information out of a terrorist and saved the lives of thousands of innocents in the process.
I think your assertions about Rumsfeld are crap. No doubt you will dig up some garbage on the internet from one out of a million sources who will back up your slander, but the truth is most Americans just want to keep their jobs and their houses, they do not want to listen to your paranoid ravings.
Terrye,
The methods we use in training are totally different from those we use in these interrogations. Here is a good explanation of the differences if you really want to know. http://www.slate.com/id/2216702/ Here is a hint – there is a slight difference between knowing that it is a pretend training exercise and having it done numerous times for real to try and extract information.
I’m not advocating trying to prosecute put Bush and others – quite frankly I’m sure at this point. I lean against it right now. I do believe, however, that we deserve to know what they did and put an end to what I view as torture. I think it is unAmerican (first time we have ever sanctioned torture in our 200 year plus history), ineffective and is a recruitment tool. if it does lead to deaths that will be on Bush’s head – he is the one that authorized it. If they do prosecute, I agree that any high level officials (including Democrats) who sanctioned or ordered it should go down as well. The CIA operatives who carried it out were simply following orders – they should be absolved.
I really don’t understand why advocates of the EIT always go back to talking about how bad the enemy treats people as some kind of justification for torture. Under your logic, we should be able to openly torture terrorist or mass murders for that matter because torutre is okay on evil people. Do you know ANYONE advocating that position? We have faced many brutal and inhumane enemies (Nazis, Imperial Japan, Viet Cong) and NEVER officially sanctioned the use of torture. Even Bush publically rejected the idea that America sanctions torture – the main issue now is whether or not the EITs constitute torture.
I’m not basing my information about Rumsfeld off some obscure website, but rather on actual government documents that have recently been released. If you took the time to actually review the links I provided you would see that the information about Rumsfeld is coming from the Senate Armed Services Committee report recently released along with the supporting military documentation it was based on. I acknowledge that it is still too early to conclusively tell, but the information so far is pretty damning. I guess we will have to see what comes out. But apparently you don’t want to be bothered with finding out if the President and Secretary of Defense sold out American soldiers to save their own butts, your too busy worrying about your job and house.
One of the reasons that many think we should prosecute Bush and the others over EIT’s is that we are a nation of laws, and we must hold people accountable. I wondering how those same people would view the millions of illegal persons in our country? Should we hold them accountable for coming here illegally? Just asking!
Kathie, I agree with you. How about illegal voting to “win” elections, how do these same people feel about that?
I personally don’t care if the Bush CIA waterboarded several terrorists to stop attacks on this country. I thank the Bush administration kept us safe for eight years.
Look what happened today, the President’s plane flies over the Hudson for a photo-op and suddenly people in New York and New Jersey were terrified that another attack was happening.
This is what real torture looks like:
http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/story?id=7402099&page=1
Where is the outrage over this? Nonexistent isn’t it.
Conman, the decisions made by Obama to release these memos will come back to haunt him. Somethings are better untouched and he’s made a very bad decision.
conguy, you’re flaying a dead horse. there have been no cases of Japanese military officials being convicted for waterboarding. their crime was ‘water torture’ and it was not waterboarding that they were doing. You need to get your info straightened out. This point has been argued over and over and so far not one single solitary soul has provided any proof of anyone being convicted for waterboarding.
The war crimes trials of the Japanese military officials convicted for waterboarding after WWII
wikipedia is not proof, wiki is written by morons in many cases. For all we know, you may have written that ‘wiki’ proof. You or Andrew Sullivan
The sophomoric vindictiveness of the anti-Bush crowd has been evident for some time, but this current crop in the White House personifies and actuates it in a most disturbing and potentially dangerous way.
If I were on trial due to these creeps, I’d hire this guy to give my closing argument:
What will they do, in a year or two, when even their lap-dog reporters start to grow tired of everything under the sun being blamed on the previous eight years which are now several years old themselves?
Perhaps that is why these childish political bullies find it attractive to keep them fresh in people’s minds via never-ending inquires and investigations.
I no longer read conman’s posts. Skip them and move on.
A former Wizbang blogger documented his research on the Japanese “water torture”, which he says is not waterboarding.
I would like to see them proceed with these investigations. Why? Because it will backfire on them AND will lead to their election loss. We should push for full release of those CIA memos, which everyone will get to see it. Of course, the left wing will go out of its way to twist it to fit their side.
I never got to watch the entire testimony of Ollie North over the Iran-Contra “scandal”, which never turned out to be a scandal. But Brit Hume used Ollie’s testimony as an example showing why the investigations will backfire on Diane, Leaky Leahy (which he released an early Iran-Contra report after Ollie’s testimony), Waxman, and other Democrats.
conman…it’s the same reason people didn’t understand why people in NYC would be upset if they flew a 747 with a chase plane at 1000 feet over the former WTC site…..THEY DON”T GET IT. And they never have. They never understood any of it and what it meant and what it took/takes to keep our nation safe, and WHY we never want such an event to happen again.
conguy, here’s wiki’s definition of water cure. what you call water boarding.
Of course bear in mind, you may have written this yourself, so take it for what it’s worth.