Mar 27 2006
Amnesty Over Mass Deportation Any Day!
** Update: More good thoughts on supporting workers, not handing out citizenship, at American Thinker.
** Update: Seems I will have my choice after all:
The Senate Judiciary Committee last night approved a plan that would put millions of illegal aliens on a path to U.S. citizenship, would let them stay here while applying and would not punish their unlawful entry as a felony, contrary to a House-passed bill.
I hate to burst people’s bubbles, but our constitution doesn’t allow for laws to be enacted pro-actively. The 11-12 million illegal immigrants now in country could never be held as felons under a new law passed this year. So reality came through and Congress decided to not try and make believe they had done something while doing nothing!
The plan approved by the committee — taken from a bill written by Sens. John McCain, Arizona Republican, and Edward M. Kennedy, Massachusetts Democrat — would fine current illegal aliens $2,000 each. The bill also would require aliens to undergo criminal background checks and mandate that they maintain employment over the six years they wait to get in line for full citizenship, a process which takes several more years.
That is the proper penalty for improper paperwork. And yes, we still need to secure our borders and punish employers who still side step registering their workers. That goes without saying.
Addendum: Governor Ahnold says it well today. Let’s come together on this path so we make progress instead of waste time.
Marine Lance Cpl. O.J. Santa Maria is a fine example of this. He is an immigrant who was living in Daly City, Calif., when he enlisted in the Marines. During the Iraq war, he was severely wounded. Because of his military service, he was granted citizenship. When the oath of citizenship was read to him, he stood up from his wheelchair in pain and in tears. “It’s for the respect,” he said later when asked why he stood. “I’m taking an oath to the Constitution of the United States of America.”
** Update: I wish this was my choice, rather than the Amnesty or Deportation.
With Republicans deeply divided, the Senate Judiciary Committee voted on Monday to legalize the nation’s 11 million illegal immigrants and ultimately to grant them citizenship, provided that they hold jobs, pass criminal background checks, learn English and pay fines and back taxes.
With Republicans deeply divided, the Senate Judiciary Committee voted on Monday to legalize the nation’s 11 million illegal immigrants and ultimately to grant them citizenship, provided that they hold jobs, pass criminal background checks, learn English and pay fines and back taxes.
If we could rally behind this immigrant workers would be documented, paying taxes and hopefully joining health care insurance pools. Without this we will have nothing – end update.
I am getting the impression some people don’t understand the stakes in the illegal immigration issue. If there is any policy which will ensure the GOP loses Congress next year it is the idea of mass deportations for what is, in the end, a crime of improper work papers.
I posted earlier on how the ‘illegal alien’ is an aberration from a fantasy number cooked up in DC by some faceless bureaucrats. The difference between a legal and illegal alien is whether the worker made it under the mythical number of ‘allowable’ guest workers. This idiotic concept that DC knows what the economy can tolerate in terms of guest workers, and the idea that number is fixed all year, is why good people fail to get registered with the proper work papers. Anyone who thinks this number dictates the goodness of someone is just plain dumb. That number is not from God, it is a wild a$$ guess. So when there are more people who can be absorbed in the economy than this mythical number predicted, it does not make the extra workers ‘illegal’, it makes that mythical number irrelevant.
The market is too dynamic and seasonal for someone in DC, pretending to be ominopent enough to pull a number from someplace ‘soecial, to define the perfect magic work force number for the coming year.
A good guest worker program would allow the market to ebb and flow while US unemployment stayed below a certian number (easily 5%). As US unemployment rose restrictions would come into play in the top job areas (anyone thinking an engineer making $110K/year is going into the produce or construction business is just not being realistic – not to mention most engineers I know should be nowhere near carpentry tools).
In that post I added a poll showing most of us our not interested in Amnesty or giving people here illegally a short cut path to citizenship. But the far right is making this an ultimatum with no choices, and it will rue the day it did. Because, simply put, I will take amnesty over massed deportations any day of the week.
A crime of improper paperwork is something like not having a proper business license, or not filing your taxes, or not registering your new car. These ‘crimes’ carry fines as punishment, not being ripped from your job and school and dumped on the streets. I am all for deporting immigrants (legal and illlegal) who commit certain crimes, including repeat DUI’s or reckless driving. But not having the proper paperwork? If 20% of illegal immigrants are in fact criminals, then that means out of the 11 million illegal immigrants I can see deporting 2.2 million – leaving 8.8 million to become documented (with a fine for not doing their papers right) and guest workers.
But rounding them all up and goose stepping them to the border?
I totally dislike amnesty. I think it is unfair to all those who worked within the system to get work permits and citizenship. But if I am forced to chose between that and deporting millions of people because the right cannot distinguish a paperwork crime from a felony, then I guess I will have to vote in Democrats and let amnesty happen.
Amnesty is a travesty. But mass deportation is a crime, a crime much worse than illegal immigration. Iy is a crime against humanity since it’s stated purpose is to throw 11 million people (and who knows how many families) into the street. It smells too much of all the ethnic cleansings of the last 100 years. It as the lame benefit of not being fatal to the targets as these other acts, but that doesn’t make it sufficiently pallatable to me.
If we have to accept a travesty to avoid a massive crime against well meaning good people, so be it. If that is all I am allowed to chose between we will have a Democrat controlled Congress, not matter how much I hate the idea. Because in this case, it truly is the lesser of two evils.
Update: Dr Sanity provides the perfect post on what America is:
“Keep ancient lands, your storied pomp!” cries she
With silent lips. “Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!”This poem lyrically communicates one of the oldest and most deeply-felt American values. Most Americans, although not immigrants themselves, have ancestors that came to this shore seeking freedom from oppression, and a new chance at life. America has always opened her arms and welcomed them. And we are a strong and vibrant country because of it.
The post describes why America’s diversity is her strength, and were the multiculturist crowd as tried to make the parts greater than the sum of the whole (cultures in the melting pot greater than the pot itself). Balance has been lost to the extremists on both sides of this issue. It is a sad a tragic time for America.
Terrye, so you grew up in the Southwest in the 60’s. The southwest of the 60’s is not the southwest of today. The reality of illegal immigration has totally changed the face of the southwest. That is the first thing you must accept. The social-enconomic face of the southwest is now entering dire straits. Because of the influx of illegals and the fact that they become entitled to social-economic benefits, the southwestern is being taxed right out of his home.
When your schools have a student ratio of 50/50 (legal to illegal), when your jails have a 30/70 ratio (legal to illegal), when states are required to provide housing, food stamps, and wefare for children, emergency medical care, this is all on the backs of the legal taxpaying resident. Please, explain to me how that is fair. Please, explain to me why I should be expected to cover the costs incrued by illegals who come here only for the benefits. And many do. They come not to work, but to be on welfare. The difference to them is the difference between living in Trump Towers or living in a clap board shack. Are you even aware that the Mexican government tells them how to obtain benefits once here? And yes, there are immigrants in Iraq. Legal immigrants. There in lies the difference. One cannot enter the service if they are an illegal. And if their families are illegal, they should change that. Not demand that we change our laws to suit their needs.
Tom Tancredo is not a moron but he is aware of the realities of illegal immigration. He has been called such foul names but yet, no one talks about the fact that his daughter in law is Hispanic and his grandchildren are half hispanic. I don’t see her arguing over his stand. And what has Tancredo said that has you in such a twit? That we should enforce our laws? That we should punish employers who knowing hire illegals? That we should stop the flow of illegals into our nation by putting the National Guard on the border to aid the Border Patrol? That we should cut all public subsidities to illegals?
All things said by Barbara Jordan (D) in 1995. And the responsibility of the military is to prevent foreign invasion. I think 11 million constitutes an invasion. An invasion is ususally made in the attempt to change the political structure of a nation. What do you think is happening here?
Those who marched in our street demanding that we change our laws to suit them were promoted by such organization as ANSWER International, LaRaza, and the reconquista crowd. When one student was asked why she marched she replies “because I am Mexican”, not because she want to be an American. These groups have other interests. Marxism, the retaking of the lands of the southwest and giving them back to Mexico are just two.
If the protest marches showed you anything, it should be this: they do not want citizenship, they want free rein to roan our nation in violation of our laws. They want the same rights as American citizens. They fly the Mexican flag, not the Stars and Bars. They carry signs in Spanish, not English. That is not the way to assimilate, to become part of the American scene. We abolished separate but equal, they want separate but equal. But the bottom line? They are not entitled to the same priviledges as American citizens. There is no provision in our consititution for citizens of other nations.
Our forefathers dreamed of a land where every person could enjoy rights granted to them by a higher power. They were willing to go to war against a powerful nation in order to obtain those rights. Americans paid for out freedoms in blood. I personally am tired of those who have no desire to change their own nations for the better but rather, expect us to change to accomodate them. I am sick of our bravest and best fighting for those who won’t fight for themselves. Mexico is not a poor nation, in fact, it is a very wealthy nation. It could support all it’s citizens if it were not so corrupt. That is not our fault and it is not our responsibility to change it. It is the responsibility of the Mexicans who cannot make a living there to change their political scene for the betterment of their own. The Mexicans who come here seem unwilling to die for their nation, but are willing to march to demand we change ours.
In 1938 we abolished child labor. Child labor represented millions of workers. Our economy did not crash. The labor market did not suffer, it adjusted. If each and every illegal left today, the market would adjust. That is the beauty of capitalism. And if we ceased paying able bodied people to stay in their homes and collect a check from the government instead of working, we would see that the jobs that some claim American’s won’t do would be filled. Who picked the cotton, worked the farms and mowed lawns before the Mexican invasion? Americans. Who cleaned hotel rooms and worked the constrution jobs? Americans. And LEGAL immigrants.
I have no more respect for those who break out immigration laws as I do for the guy who puts everyone in danger because he drives over the speed limit. I do not place priority on laws. A law is enacted because it is in the common good. So how can I say that one law is more important than another?
If we had mass immigration of Muslims who were here to only harm us and not to better our society, would you feel any different? If they were here to impose Shria law on us, would you feel different about letting them stay? Sure you would, and rightfully so. But you don’t seem to understand that that is exactly what these marches said; we are here to change your society and your laws. We are here to demand that you change to suit our needs.
I applaud your “humanity” but don’t be fooled into thinking that this movement by the illegals is not a threat to our very way of life. Not all invaders carry weapons.
Bloody Spartan,
You are not welcomed here. Take your insecurity and hate some place else.
Addendum: If anyone is wondering why I am taking this stand it is because Bloody Spartan literally promoted the killing of human beings without any due process. The last time this kind of border concept was used was the Iron Curtain with the Communists guards authorized to shoot anyone on sight. I cannot and will not allow this sight to be used to promote the slaughter of people like this. I have not banned his account. I expect him to take the proper action all on his own. This is ugly and driven by fear. People who think we should kill others like this are just frightened to the point they are acting like a cornered animal. While Spartan may think he appears all big and bad, I see someone scared to death and lashing out. – AJStrata
AJ, I post this site to give you an indication of what is really going on in the minds of the illegals.
It calls OBL the Pancho Villa of the Muslims, is anti-Isreal and filled with hate for white and Jews.
A recent poll conducted in Mexico said that 69% of Mexicans agree with this premise.
http://www.aztlan.net
Retire05,
I know about the group. So what? That is the extremist end people are chasing the immigrants workers towards. Right now the represent the exception. But if Tancredo keeps flapping his jaws I am sure these extremists will be able to recruit more.
Stop pretending to yourelf I am ignorant of the issues.
Wow, AJ! Who would have believed this hornet’s nest, while most of these people (if any) were totally silent when a US senator admitted to what amounted to an act of treason on nat’l TV?
At any rate, I was a school administrator for 10 years before my retirement (in 2000, retire05, so I think my 66 yrs in Az qualifies me as someone who has grown with the immigrant problem) in the poorest, most at-risk population district of ALL the elementary districts in the state of AZ. We only WISHED that our ratio had been as good as 50-50.
In all of those years, the preponderance of parents were hard working, good catholics, and concerned primarily with the same things that middle-class America wanted–a better life for their kids.
Sure, we had our share of drunks and dopers as you always do in a barrio. But few were dope dealers or criminals–those kind were “too good” to live in the same housing conditions that our families lived in.
The real problem was the stress on the health and school systems, rather than the law enforcement and welfare systems.
At this point, to assume that mass deportations are even possible is ridiculous. I would go even further and say that a $2000 fine is not possible for most of these folks if a lump sum up front is required. If they had that much disposable cash, they would be spending it on life’s necessities.
Nevertheless, they represent a population much like the various waves of European newcomers–including those of mine, other than my Choctaw ancestors.
I suggest that accommodations need to be made for those who have been here a decade or more, with constant employment, and who have not otherwise violated the criminal code. To do otherwise is inhumane to good families.
For those of you that may remember the Wilson 4, those were my kids. We took them as 2-3rd graders who were mono-lingual Spanish, and not only got them thru high school, but as honor students at ASU. They are still awaiting final judgement as to whether they will be allowed to use their about-to-be awarded college degrees in the US or whether they must return to Mexico, even tho they cannot remember any life there.
Deportation is not always justice. These kids did not set out to violate US law–they were too young.
Agreed, AZ Redneck. The law does require mens rea for someone to be held responsible for a crime.
The amazing thing to me is that a guy like Tancredo thinks it is a crime to compromise with Democrats on immigration but he is willing to splt the vote in 08 and give the damn election to Hillary Clinton. ‘So be it’ he says. How am I expected to take people like that seriously?
BTW, I want to see borders secure, an end to people coming in when and if they feel like it, I want to know who is here and why. I don’t want to see America collapse and I resent this attitude from people that says their way is the only way and debate on the subject is not open.
They seem hysterical and narrow minded and if they really are willing to give the country to the Democrats over this I guess Independents like me can vote Democrat and save the zealots the trouble of sabotaging their own party and president.
And I know the southwest has changed, that is my whole point. Once upon a time there was no water, no big cities and we encouraged cheap seasonal labor to cross that border to work the camps in places like California. That has changed, but we did not close that border, we did not enforce the laws and now we have a problem. We could have dealt with it with relative ease back then, but those days are gone.
AJ, the recent poll taken in Mexico (not the U.S.) showed that 69% of Mexican nationals believe in the goals of Aztlan. How many of those do you think even know who Tom Tancredo is? And why are you getting all in a twit because I don’t agree with your premise that law breakers should be rewarded because they broke a “lesser” law? Do you only allow those on this forum who do agree with you? Why do you think that International ANSWER, LaRaza, World Can’t Wait and the Communist Party of America is involved in wanting amnesty for millions of uneducated sheep who will go with whomever tells them what they want to hear? It was those organizations that backed the marches.
To AZRedneck I woudl ask? Where did these illegals get the base price of $2,000.00 that the cayotes charge to sneak them into the United States? You say they cannot afford the fine but they could afford the price of the cayote?
To Terrye, you’re right. We should have dealt with the problem way back when. But the rocket scientists in Washington did not and now the problem has reached critical mass.
Take a good look at France. That is us in a few years. It’s coming and the wave of illegals will fuel the fire. I hope all of you have the personalities to accept change in our social structure, for it is coming.
Retire05,
What I am saying is people who rant against immigrants don’t allow them a way to assimilate and, instead, chase them to these groups we do not want them to go to. You and Tancredo do more to recruit for these folks than you are willing to admit.
Change happens all the time. It happened in my lifetime and my kids lifetimes. Change is not something to fear. What is wrong his hate. Change that makes us more animal and less human. I allow anyone on this site. Bloody Spartan crossed the line when he advocated shooting people on site. They are not animals or parasites.
If you agree with Spartan then go somewhere else. No one is making you come here.
But if you are going to be here – pay attention. No one here is advocating amnesty. When people do not register or have proper paperwork they are fined. They are not evicted from job, home, church and school. The problem is anger – which you are stoking. Maybe we could all solve this if folks like you would just be quiet and let people with an imagination to give it a shot. All you and Tancredo have done is create that 69% support in Mexico.
That is the fruit of your efforts.
What you do is lump into one big smear the 20% of immigrants who are bad apples and should not be here with the folks added to the post body who served this country on the front lines and were injured protecting our society. And ‘thought process’ that cannot discern these two groups of immigrants is just not worth listening to.
AJ, you operate on the assumption that I am not considered a minority myself. How do you know? And you also operate on the assumption that 60% of the Mexican nationals know who Tom Tancredo is. That I have to doubt. Most of them don’t even read much less know who American congressmen are.
I don’t hate anyone and that, again, is a cheap shot by you to insinuate that I do or that I promote hate. I promote the rule of law, for American citizens and for Mexican citizens.
I do not agree with Spartan, far from it. And no where in any of my posts can you, even with a stretch, claim that.
Served on the front lines and were injured protecting our society”? How so, AJ. Immigrants in the military are legal. Police, firefighters and other first responders who are immigrants are legal. So how do the illegals protect our society?
How much are you willing to pay to allow the illegals to stay here? What do you recommend we do with the over 100,000 OTM’s that we captured trying to sneak into the United States through our southern border? They came from Mexico, should Mexico not be responsible for them?
I am sorry, AJ, we are polls apart on this issue. I wish the illegals no harm. I just want them to go back to where they came from and enter legally, to honor our laws that will govern them once they are here and for you to realize that Barbara Jordan was right.
No, I am just pointing out that Tancredo makes this mess worse. Immigrants do not respond well to denigration. And I hope you are not going to tell me immigrants are not denigrated or feel denigrated.
We are not deporting 12 million people. Time for folks to simply get over that one.
Well, AJ, if pointing out the social-economic strain that illegals put on the American taxpayer, the total disregard of the rule of law, the attitude that keeps them from assimilating into our culture is denigrating, then so be it. Sometimes the truth hurts.
No doubt Retire will never see this, but hundreds of people every day risk everything(their lives) coming across the Az border, many without the “benefit” of coyotes. Many die, with or without assistance.
I don’t approve, and I support rigid enforcement of the border, together with immediate deportment for those who are caught or those who are incarcerated for whatever reason.
AJ is right, however. There is no way we are going to deport millions who are already here. My point is that those who have already been here long enough to establish a good work history without any other criminal activity have already proven that they are the type of immigrant that built this country. To me, that record is far more important than a fine.
If such folks have not paid taxes, the employer is more at fault than they are!
deportment=deportation. sorry
We just want Mexicans to assimilate and become Americans , but it seems that Mexico wants them to live here and stay Mexican :
http://www.city-journal.org/html/15_4mexico. html
Retire05,
You have no ‘truth’, so it doesn’t hurt me in the least. Tnacredo’s kind of thinking will be the casualty in all this. And good riddance.
Let’s see: you claim I rant about illegals and therefore denigrate them; you accuse me of not having any humanity; you compare me to a nut-case that wants to shot illegals on sight, now you say I have “no truth”. If you are trying to insult me so I will not post again, why not just tell me not to post again? Or is there something in your personality that demands that if someone doesn’t agree with you, you have to be insulting toward that person? Winning by intimidation, perhaps?
I have not been insulting toward you. Instead, I have tried to provide you the other side of the coin, which apparently you are unwilling to look at. I cannot change you mind and it is obvious that I cannot even make you look at the illegal immigration controversy from another point of view, from the point of view of someone’s whose life is impacted, in a negative way, by illegals every day.
Perhaps when you have to line your property with razon wire like residents of south Texas have to do in order to keep their homes from being broken into while they are at work, you might see things a little differently.
I look forward to you next subject on this blog. Perhaps you will have “some truth” in what you publish.
I am not telling you to leave because you have done nothing to warrant such action. I did not even ban Bloody Spartan (I hold out hope he will chose one of many paths out of his predicament).
I do see I owe you an apology. I should not have linked you to Spartan’s horrific idea of shooting these people.
That was my mistake.
Sincerely, AJStrata
AJ you are so wrong.
I said in order to seal the border I would shoot to kill.
Saying I would shoot to kill if you cross the border and doing it are two different things but I probably would do after they crossed the wall, etc and a few warning shots.
They have to be stopped and fear would be a great impetus
The day a nuke or biological comes across a border and kills Amereicans will be a day we all will reget. This will be the day Amercia fractures.
I have never harmed any one in my life and hope to GOD I never will.
But if the illegals have no fear they will do what they want not what we need.
No problem banning me it’s your site.
Be Well.
AJ,
Thaks for not banning me but as far as I am concerned this is your site so since you foot the bill you can be the dictator.
I doubt this “ass___e”will change too much.
I have followed you for months and I guess the transmittal phase of my mind needs more work than the receiver, but I think you should appreciate retire05 statements and not associate him with me.
He said things in a much more literary fashion with facts to back up his points.
Maybe I will read that copy of “Elements of Style” I recently purchased.
I was not going to write again but found this on your site.
Who wrote this I cut it from your site?
“End Update
The strident voices on both sides of this issue are claiming the pending doom of civilization as we know it. Of course, we have somehow avoided this doom during the 30+ years this issue has blossomed. We let illegal immigration grow to a point were we cannot reverse it without draconian measures only a few have the stomach for – we are not rounding up 11 million people here illegally and dumping them over the border. We all need to recognize that the fault lies with us all.
”
If you did, then I at a loss for you recognizing a drastic need but castigating the executors of policy.
If you did not then ignore it.
Assuming you did why do you blame all of us?
Edward Gibbon’s books detailed the process. It is not one that occurs overnight.
Unless of course it’s do to an invading divison of Armor.
You invite debate and then lump any who disagree with you as fanatics.
I may be but that does not mean some of what I say is not valid.
You claim diversity is the key, I disagree once again.
I say it is not diversity but what those ingredients produced is what made America great.
That no longer exists and I am at a loss why most Americans neither see it or are willing to do something about it. The pattern is there.
Reminds me of a great line from the movie “Villa Rides between Brenner, Bronson and Mitchum about saving the villagers and the will to help”.
Years ago America succeeded because of itself, now it succeeds in spite of.
I may be an a_____e in your eyes but that is fine with me, but emotions for the most part should be kept out of it, unless logic tells us they are necessary.
As a kid growing up I read many books somethimes 2-3 a day, much history.
People think in patterns and I see many of those patterns today.
Why are they not visible to others. Maybe I am blind with the hate and deviant thinking I possess. Or what you think I do.
I respect that by the way. I appreciate your words, part of being a man I suppose. At least I know where you are coming from.
I hate wishy washy men who change their mind constantly.
Lastly, I cannot believe you missed the parts of Lunacy off and ala Monty Python. I guessed you would see I was taking the extreme but obviously I failed..
Yet if you wrote the edit above, how is it that you can also see the extreme need yet not want some one to do it.
Either way it’s your site and neither one of us will change it’s mind, me thinks.
Seeing what needs to be done and doing it are a hell of a long way from liking it.
Be Well