Jul 20 2008
The End Of The COLB Cult – Myth Busted Again
Update: Reader Ray from Australia noted this article wherein an official of the state of HI looked at the BHO COLB and said it looked to be real.
When the birth certificate arrived from the Obama campaign it confirmed his name as the other documents already showed it. Still, we took an extra step: We e-mailed it to the Hawaii Department of Health, which maintains such records, to ask if it was real.
“It’s a valid Hawaii state birth certificate,” spokeswoman Janice Okubo told us.
As shown below, how could anyone miss the unique style of the border? There’s more – there may now exist another COLB with the same border:
We circled back to the Department of Health, had a newsroom colleague bring in her own Hawaii birth certificate to see if it looks the same (it’s identical).
As I said below, just one more COLB formatted like Obama’s and Pam’s expert has egg on his face. Update: I have a question for Techdude and others who have multiple COLBs in their position: Did you ever get one that looks like the BHO COLB with its style of borders? And if so, why didn’t you publish that information? You may not, but these witnesses indicate there were two formats in circulation. Kind of hard to believe you folks never saw one, but it is possible. - end update
Why are there two formats? Either one was a prototype discontinued or HI is just running through the last of their old stock. But the point still stands – to accuse someone of a crime you have to more the claim it is possible. If anyone has a COLB that has the same border pattern as below I would be interested in hearing about it [ajstrata@strata-sphere.com]
Finally, Hat Tip to Allahpundit at Hot Air for the link. Hope your sin of support doesn’t cause too many headaches from the cultists.
Update: Well, if someone wants to know why this myth-mess is good for Obama, here’s an example – end update
Well, it seems we finally have the final report, representing the final act of the COLB Cult today. Techdude has produced something that impresses the non-technical groupies of the movement. But does it hold up to the argument there is evidence, beyond a reasonable doubt (my standard for when I confront smears)? No, not really.
One thing to recall is the track record of failed claims from various cultists since this began. Each claim debunked, followed by wilder claims, which were debunked. Here is a recap of the trend:
(1) The image on Kos was a forgery because it was not a BC but a COLB (took people a while to realize HI had moved to issuing COLBs instead of BCs).
(2) The image was a fake because there was no stamped seal – later discovered existing in the image.
(3) The image was a fake because there was not signature seen on the back – later discovered in the image.
(4) The image was a fake because there was no date stamp for when it was issued – which was detected and evident to the casual viewer.
(5) The image was fake because it was photoshopped – later shown to be a cropping of the excess paper area and blacking out of the ID number
(6) The image was fake because it was different from the BHO version – later discovered to be the fact BHO saved the image to a lower resolution, smaller web friendly version.
(7) The image is a fake because it was made from a forgery started by Opendna – that lame claim lived for weeks, but in the end was proven impossible.
(8) The image was a fake because the borders did not match a 2002 COLB – one of my favorites because of this line from the aforementioned Techdude:
But upon manually stretching them to match edge to edge I caught a glimpse of what I and apparently everyone else had simply not noticed. The security borders do not match. Literally. They are not even close to identical.
Here’s the image of the two borders – how could anyone not see that? Subtle – eh? Techdude later admitted THIS claim was wrong – there had been updates between the 2002 and 2007 COLB formats. He also debunked the Opendna claims.
(8) The image was claimed to be a fake as more and more people compared the 2002 COLB to the newer 2007 COLB – all of which proved nothing more than we already knew, Hawaii was updating their vital records and COLBS in response to 9-11 and the Real ID Act of 2005, as can be seen in the variety of COLBs found for the period
(9) The image was a fake because the document format version control number never changed while the format did – which we now know is because the format control number covers the data fields and contents, not the look and feel.
(10) The image is a fake because a date field has a format anomaly in it – but then the exact same anomaly was found in other COLBS from the same time frame.
(11) Anti-aliasing haze around the text was a sign of forgery – when it is actually only a sign of text being printed.
Today Techdude has his report out, so let’s see if he has a smoking gun or wrecked professional credibility.
Sadly, Techdude doesn’t provide an analysis, he produces cherry picked data from one side only. A real analysis compares the evidence that supports the opposite conclusion. From the list above we see tons of reverse examples. Assumptions of what real image would contain, which later proved to exist. All those debunked claims are also evidence that the COLB image is real. It from the totality of the evidence that we decide which side is MORE COMPELLING. A real technical analysis would address all the evidence and discuss why some crazy marginal border measurements outweigh things like the impressed seal (hard to fake), a signature area, etc. All things COMMON to valid COLBs and images of them, but hard to fake out using graphics programs.
And much of what Techdude discovered PROVES points I made way back – which supports the claim the image of the BHO COLB is a scan of a legit COLB. For example, I predicted that as part of the upgrades to the COLB that came on line in 2006, there was a change in the paper which was probably a more secure paper-cloth hybrid. This new paper was thicker and made the seal impression harder to detect from a front scan. Techdude confirmed this again today:
The embossed seals and ink stamps in all of the pre-2006 images are clearly visible in the scans however none of the post-2006 seals or ink stamps are visible without extensive manipulation to the digital images. Even when scanning the physical post-2006 certificate in my possession using multiple resolutions and using multiple scanners I was also unable to produce an image which would allow the seal to show though the image. The ink stamps on the rear side were also not visible in the front side scans without digital modifications to the scanned images. My scans of the physical certificate also produced the same results using multiple resolutions and using multiple scanners.
This destroys many forgery claims by Polarik and others who compared the 2002 COLB and BHO 2007 COLBs based on these features. And in fact, the similarity in the results by Techdude on taking modern COLBs and seeing the same telltales in his scans as shown in the Kos image means he proved the Kos image is legit. When you use real world COLBs and perform the same scanning process using a range of variables and you create the same result this is confirmation.
It should have been noted as such in any professional ‘report’. Also, if you want review of your work you need to provide the data. Figure 3 is a low quality image of the ’smoking gun’. When I tried to down load it and blow it up it was impossible to see. Sorry, but peer reviewing requires the actual data. I will forego any detailed comments until Techdude and Pam decide to provide all the data.
But let’s step back again to the blatantly obvious fact the BHO COLB has unique security borders – not even close to the others. Techdude goes into minute measurements to prove the obvious – the borders are not the same. Why? We know they are not. Not the same color, not the same pattern, not the same dimensions. What Techdude has not proven is that the 2007 BHO COLB is the one and only HI COLB with that pattern! Techdude has two other COLBS (from 2006 and 2008) with telltales IDENTICAL to the BHO COLB. These include version numbers, data fields and contents, border lettering, seal imprints etc. Commonalities that cannot be ignored.
Finally Techdude repeats his horrible mistake from day one – he goes back to comparing apples to oranges. Remember, Techdude has some original COLBs, which he or someone else scanned. They were not scanned by the same person who scanned the BHO COLB. They were not scanned on the same machines using the same settings. Why is this important?
Because the tools Techdude wanted to use to do image analysis are used to detect image manipulation WITHIN an image. These tools and methods look at inconsistencies with in an image to show where the image was manipulated. an image should have consistent sharpness, depth, resolution, etc if it has not been tampered with. Areas where there is known tampering would show up easily (for example where the ID number was blocked out). A real expert in this field did the analysis on the BHO image and concluded they were reasonably untouched (minus the known manipulations).
What did Techdud do? To my shock he took three different images and tried to compare across them!
The 2007, 2008, and the two KOS images were then analyzed by creating a heat map showing where each pixel changes as jpeg quality decreases from 100 to 0. A change was considered relevant once the sum of the changes to the red, green, and blue values exceeded 10%. The heat map created from the 2007 and 2008 images showed the fonts, seal image, and security border are all identical consistent values. To eliminate any subjective presumptions and to increase the number of comparative tests the same analysis was then conducted on the 2006 and prior certificate images which all found the fonts, seal images, and security borders to also be saved with identical consistent values. The same analysis on the KOS images showed the security border having a substantially different RGB quality value than the fonts and the seal image.
It is a rookie mistake with these kinds of tools, to try and make assumptions across uniquely created images of different formatted documents. There is no conclusion that can be drawn when doing this except the documents are different and the process of image capture was not the same. It doesn’t prove anything beyond that (and Techdude knows this). Here are the images:
Original here. Clearly there is are differences, but I want to note the blacking out of date fields to show what a ‘forgery’ we show. You can see in all three where the modifications were done – they are impossible to miss. They have sharper edges, they have different colors. While all three show different RGB results, all of them are the same thing – efforts to black out personal data. You need to look at changes in the context of the image itself, not across images. For example, the fact COLB 2 has bright borders on the black outs and COLB 1 doesn’t is not a sign one of them is forged.
The BHO COLB is unique to the set of COLBs so far seen. But we can end this mess in a heartbeat. If anyone has a HI COLB that is of the format and structure of the BHO COLB please share it with us. If you got a COLB around Jun 2007 my guess is you might have the variant we saw with the OBH COLB, which seemed to be around for a while as an experiment or prototype version. Just a scan of of the border is needed – nothing more.
Techdude has given his groupies more false positives to run around and play their games with. He also showed, unintentionally, why the BHO COLB image could be real. He confirmed the paper upgrade and showed empirically that all the new COLBs, post 2006, shared the same traits regarding the impression of the seal.
Now what are the odds someone who screwed up the borders so badly also caught the paper quality detail? Basically they are – zero! No one who did enough investigating to make sure the seal imprint was light due to new, thicker paper would miss the borders. What are the odds a person who screwed up the borders so badly was able to know to put the date field anomaly in? Zero as well. Thanks Techdude, but as usual you proved my point. When you claim such an obvious and glaring disconnect is the work of a forger who was able to get the other mountain of hidden details right – you have debunked yourself.
Myth busted – again.
81 Responses to “The End Of The COLB Cult – Myth Busted Again”
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AJ:
I appreciate your critical review of both Techdude’s analysis and the analyses of others who seem intent on proving that the COLB was a forgery. You are indeed correct that the scientific method is built on disproof, not proof. However, I would politely ask you to follow suit. Just as Techdude has failed to prove beyond a reasonable doubt (your standard, not necessarily mine) that the document is a forgery, neither has it been proved that the document is not a forgery. Hence, you seem all too eager to proclaim at every juncture that the “myth” has been “busted.” That is presumptuous too, my friend.
The correct approach should be to speak in terms of what we absolutely do know and state possible conclusions as to things we don’t know for certain in conditional terms. From following this debate, I would state the situation currently stands thusly:
(1) Assuming that the COLBs scanned by Techdude from 2006 to 2008 represent the only border patterns used in Hawaii COLBs during that time frame, and
(2) Assuming that the Obama COLB that has been the subject of all this analysis was printed in 2007, then
(3) It would not be an unwarranted to conclusion to suggest that the Obama COLB was a forgery, although other (less likely) non-forgery explanations might remain.
I believe that that is an accurate statement as to what we do know. Now, the chief concern should be determining the veracity of premises (1) and (2).
Concerning (1), I’d have to say that it seems more likely than not (a “preponderance of the evidence,” if you like) that if the border patterns on the 2006 through 2008 COLBs are identical (and they seem to be), then any 2007 COLBs would have the same border pattern. I think this needs to be addressed. We need to determine the full range of different border pattern used from 2006 to 2008. I suggested to Mitchell Langbert that he request a copy of the full range of templates used since 1961 to see if any match. I think we should watch carefully to see if the HI Dept. of Health supplies him with them.
Concerning (2), has it been seriously disputed the the Obama COLB was issued and printed in 2007? That is not a rhetorical question; I’m really asking.
In sum, I don’t think it prudent under the scientific method to conclude that the Obama COLB was genuine beyond a reasonable doubt. The most that can be said is that no one has yet proven it to be a forgery beyond a reasonable doubt. And finally, I think the border pattern disparity that Techdude has demonstrated is a substantial piece of evidence that, while not dispositive of forgery, cannot easily be dismissed.
AJ; its no surprise you would attempt to refute “techdud’s” analysis, I predicted that a week ago.
Just like the Immigration issue, just like the Michele Obama so-called “Whitey” tape issue, you’ve painted yourself into a corner with your “analysis”.
And as you’ve already proven AJ, multiple times, once you paint yourself into a corner with your own “analysis”, you never retreat, nor admit you made a mistake, you just come out swinging even harder, and you never let it go, you repeat it ad naseum, hoping that eventually, thru sheer dint of volumne, you’ll make it true.
That’s fine, your Blog, your “rules”.
I’ll no longer comment on the validity of Obama’s COLB; I have my opinion, you have yours.
However, a comment on your number one fan, and supporter, “Ray” from Australia!
He has been posting on this Blog, for the past week, passing himself off as a technical “expert”; supporter of your analysis, buttressing your claims, and all the while pretending to be some type of apolitical outside observer ‘expert” who’s only interest in this affair was the empircal truth!
Well, it seems that little charade collapsed today over at Atlas, as he has:
a) admitted he’s in the tank for Obama (so much for the apolitical, unbiased interest in the COLB issue)!
b) admitted that he really isn’t a “technical expert” after all; he’s only an “digital reproduction”; which means basically he xerox’s documents, or works in Kinko’s for a living!
c) plays the “victim” because we all challenged him to put up or shut up
d) in the end, admits hes’ got nothing, and refers us to your website, and some other website, for the “expertise”.
http://atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com/atlas_shrugs/2008/07/atlas-exclusive.html?cid=123060168#comment-123060168
WOW!
AJ, in the end, as I always said, Commonsense is the ONLY thing that applies here.
If you believe AJ, that a major Presidential Campaign, such as Obama’s, would release their REAL COLB thru a radical Leftist Nutbag website, such as the Daily Kos, then fine, power to you.
Me, I don’t believe it!
I DO believe, as I’v always said, that there is nothing on Obama’s REAL COLB, that is forged, or inaccurate, or embarrasing to him.
I have however said, I just in no way believe that they’d release their REAL COLB thru that website, that is why I believe the Daily Kos version is a fake.
That’s not “expertise”, that’s just commonsense!
But, if you choose to think that that is true, okay, then fine, we agree to disagree.
Regardless of that, it does appear that “Ray”, is a bogus supporter, by his own admission.
AJ;
I think you are taking the long way around this. None of the studies, paper, etc. really matter – not to a genealogist.
I am a “genealogist”, having spent a good 20 years working on family history. I’ve also spent 2 years as a Registrar in the DAR. I don’t know how familiar you are with the DAR and their standards, but I looked at the Obama certificated presented as a DAR Registrar. It doesn’t work.
Given the fact that all states are different, there are certain facts one needs to accept a certificate as valid. If I were working on a DAR form to submit in order to have an ancestor recognized, I would absolutely refuse to accept the certificate as presented, knowing that it would be denied by the NSDAR’s strict requirements for records. I would assume 2 additional pieces of information would be needed to overcome the problems of the certificate in question.
It has nothing to do with paper, font, grains of paper, weave of paper, etc – and everything to do with the fact that there is no “Official” notation on the paper, such as a stamp, something embossed, or a notary mark. If there is no such mark, I would clearly attach a printed notation from the state in question that none were required. If you look at the material provided on Atlas Shrugs, there are several valid certificates presented. All have an emboss stamp on it. Without that stamp, the certificate is, in my Registrar’s mind, not valid.
It doesn’t matter if it is a copy. Some form of the above will show up somewhere on the copy. I’ve made dozens of copies of certificates. There will be a shadow or something on it. There is none on the Obama certificate.
Until I see that notation or am presented with valid information from the state of Hawaii that it is not needed, none of this matters.
SJR
The Pink Flamingo
SJR,
Actually, I have taken the direct way to this – I demanded cold hard PROOF that there was a forgery.
Look, these people have had to regroup their claims so many times it was only a matter of time the would box themselves into their own fantasies. Now the propose someone created a forgery of such astounding detail as to mimic the new paper and how a seal stamp would be seen in an jpg image, along with accurately reflecting a subtle anomaly in a date field, but totally screw up the simple cross-hatched border????
Pullease. As a friend would say they just pulled a hat out of a rabbit (aka, BS hollywood endings were miraculous things are discovered).
http://texasdarlin.wordpress.com/2008/07/19/another-obamanut-threatens-me/
The “Legend of Crocodile RAYdee” has just taken another hit; as we discover that he has been nothing but a Pro-Obama/Pro-Hillary Troll, all along, passing himself off as a “reproduction” expert (working at Kinko’s??), while all the while, buttressing AJ’s “analysis” with “analysis” and ‘expertise” of his own!
WOW!
AJ, you might be right, ‘techdude” might be right, but one thing that is for sure, “Ray” is a fraud!
AJStrata wrote:
SJR,
Actually, I have taken the direct way to this – I demanded cold hard PROOF that there was a forgery.
Look, these people have had to regroup their claims so many times it was only a matter of time the would box themselves into their own fantasies. Now the propose someone created a forgery of such astounding detail as to mimic the new paper and how a seal stamp would be seen in an jpg image, along with accurately reflecting a subtle anomaly in a date field, but totally screw up the simple cross-hatched border???? [....]
Yeah, but what if they DID screw up the general appearance of the border – at least they got it grossly out-of-square, just like the real McCoy so you’ve gotta give ‘em points for that.
Ray
DaleinAtlanta wrote:
However, a comment on your number one fan, and supporter, “Ray” from Australia!
He has been posting on this Blog, for the past week, passing himself off as a technical “expert”; supporter of your analysis, buttressing your claims, and all the while pretending to be some type of apolitical outside observer ‘expert” who’s only interest in this affair was the empircal truth!
Well, it seems that little charade collapsed today over at Atlas, as he has:
a) admitted he’s in the tank for Obama (so much for the apolitical, unbiased interest in the COLB issue)!
b) admitted that he really isn’t a “technical expert” after all; he’s only an “digital reproduction”; which means basically he xerox’s documents, or works in Kinko’s for a living!
c) plays the “victim” because we all challenged him to put up or shut up
d) in the end, admits hes’ got nothing, and refers us to your website, and some other website, for the “expertise”.
———–
Let me prefix this by saying that the following comment is not meant to be one of those off-the-cuff internet insults. I mean this in the literal sense.
DaleinAtlanta, you appear to be delusional. None of those allegations are true. You made it up.
Ray
INTRO: The End Of The COLB Cult – Myth Busted Again
by AJStrata
————————————————————————-
Geez, I’m glad it’s techdude and Polarik copping it and not me!
Ray
Ray, Dale is not always technical sharp. If he were he would know zeroxing is not a digital process. Yeah, saw you were taking a beating – seems you are able to take it. And I had no idea you were an Obama supporter (I am clearly not).
Well, nobody’s perfect. But in this case you and I and many others are sort of looking at this with our jaws dropped asking “who could be this technically naive?” Seems a lot of folks can be.
drake,
Can you prove your not a child molester? See the why asking to prove a negative is in total opposition to what America stands for?
This is not France. Americans (even dumb ones with no business being in power) are innocent until proven guilty.
So no, I will not play “France’ with you.
Dale, I did disprove it. You just don’t have the technical expertise to grasp it.
And yes, your COLB Cult is JUST like the Church of Al Gore!
Not my problem if you have been out drinking Kool Aid again.
AJStrata wrote:
“Well, it seems we finally have the final report”
————–
It depends upon your definition of “final” is.
There’s a FINAL-FINAL report to come yet, and in your haste you’ve probably not anticipated the SEQUEL to the FINAL-FINAL report. That should be a real doozy of a FINAL report.
Let me prefix this by saying that the following comment is not meant to be one of those off-the-cuff internet insults. I mean this in the literal sense.
DaleinAtlanta, you appear to be delusional. None of those allegations are true. You made it up.
Ray
Ah, Ray, they are ALL correct!
And you’ve been so spanked over at Atlas, by your own admissions, you’ve been reduced to coming over here, and hiding behind AJ.
And, you’ve been outted over at TexasDarlin’ as an Obami fan, a troll, and a fraud.
Sorry, deal with it!
# AJStrataon 20 Jul 2008 at 6:13 pm
Dale, I did disprove it. You just don’t have the technical expertise to grasp it.
And yes, your COLB Cult is JUST like the Church of Al Gore!
Not my problem if you have been out drinking Kool Aid again.
Wow, this from the guy who PROVED the Michelle “Whitey” Obama tape DID EXIST, purely from reading Larry C. Johson’s Blog!
WOW; if that was MY RECORD AJ, I wouldn’t be throwing stones!
You’ve actually disproved nothing, I think “techdude” has handed you your lunch, frankly!
AJStrata wrote:
“Ray, Dale is not always technical sharp. If he were he would know zeroxing is not a digital process. Yeah, saw you were taking a beating – seems you are able to take it. And I had no idea you were an Obama supporter (I am clearly not).
Well, nobody’s perfect. But in this case you and I and many others are sort of looking at this with our jaws dropped asking “who could be this technically naive?” Seems a lot of folks can be.”
———-
I’m not exactly an Obama supporter. I wouldn’t vote for him in this election if I had a choice. I’d like to see Hillary get in, but I am beginning to see that even if he doesn’t have many real skills for the Presidency, he may be able to help with peace a bit more than the others.
I don’t yet have a good idea about your political interests are yet, but I think I could hang around a bit longer here than in some other places where I disagree. I’m not all that interested in politics usually, but I got riled up over that Gitmo stuff last year.
Incidentally I saw the ‘crescent monument’ thread and I agree that it should be changed, while at the same time having no disrespect for Islam. They wouldn’t want an ‘accidental’ cross in the wrong place either.
Ray
DaleinAtlanta wrote:
[....]
And you’ve been so spanked over at Atlas, by your own admissions, you’ve been reduced to coming over here, and hiding behind AJ.
Huh, I’m always good for about 6 weeks! I’m just giving a few others a chance to get a word in.
I’ll dive over there shortly and start pointing out some problems with techdude’s work.
Ray
Dale,
You need to go back and read my positions on the tape – I was calling for anyone to put up or shut up. I had my doubts and said so. I also said any news organization that had it and held it was illegally manipulating our elections.
I never tried to prove it existed. Your whole is deep enough now, take a breather.
Ugh – I hate to do this, but I have to agree with Larry Johnson on one point. Barrack Obama’s non-denial denial yesterday, regarding the existence of a damaging Michelle Obama video, is actually a sign there is a video of Michelle making some harsh comments against whites, and the Obama campaign know it exists,
and…
If I had to guess I would say the video exists and has some potential to damage him (though I still say it is minor since the video is not out now and requires so much hype).
http://strata-sphere.com/blog/index.php/archives/5508
ah. okay AJ; sorry, once again I got it wrong.
You are correct on everything; I must apologize again, I’m wrong! You never said the tape existed; I just made that up!
And, once again, you HAVE to be correct on the COLB because you said so!
My humblest apologies…
[...] AJ Strata has already come out to refute the findings, and calls the people who question the Obama COLB “cultists”. [...]
Dale,
My friend, life would not be the same without you here. Seriously, I mean that. Just remember that when you have to pick me up off the floor.
Cheers, AJStrata
Can you prove your not a child molester? See the why asking to prove a negative is in total opposition to what America stands for?
This is not France. Americans (even dumb ones with no business being in power) are innocent until proven guilty.
AJ,
Since you are intent upon using legal standards, I will play your game. In the United States a person is presumed innocent until proven guilty. That does not mean that he is actually innocent, only that the court will maintain a presumption that he is until the prosecution proves otherwise. Now, if the prosecution fails to carry its burden – that the defendant is guilty – beyond a reasonable doubt, what happens? Has that person been proven innocent? No. He has been acquitted, which means that his presumption of innocence remains.
Similarly, Obama’s COLB should enjoy the presumption of validity until proven to be a forgery. Like you, I don’t believe that those who’ve thus far tried have in fact carried that burden. So now, where does the situation stand? Obama’s COLB continues to enjoy the presumption of validity.
However, that is not what you have done. You have essentially said that Obama’s COLB has been proven authentic, hence the continually employed “myth busted” language. I say that you are unjustified in proclaiming the matter settled, and you turn around and claim that I’m demanding that Obama prove its authenticity. You’ve obviously misconstrued the distinction.
Now, you revile those who are so fixated on discrediting the COLB that they will ignore any contrary evidence. And I am essentially asking you to look in the mirror. I think the fact that Techdude has produced (allegedly) three COLBs from 2006 to 2008, each with the same border pattern, is quite significant, considering the fact that Obama’s 2007 COLB border pattern does not match. Does that prove the COLB is a forgery? No, at least not beyond a reasonable doubt. Your point that the alleged fabricators would emulate hard-to-mimic details such as the embossed seal while missing the border pattern is very well taken. But the border discrepancy should very legitimately raise some eyebrows. And your steadfast refusal to even entertain the possibility is what calls your credibility into question.
drake,
Rule of law is not a game. Whether an citizen has to prove his innocence or the government his guilt is not a joke. Sorry, but you dismiss what separates America from the rest of the world with the cavalier attitude of a cultist who needs to believe, because he can’t defeat Obama on the merits of sound arguments.
You really don’t think you are impressing me do you? I have tough standards for being impressed.
Techdude has not just produced three COLBs that differ from the 2007 BHO, but by the logic of his first post I noted here those COLBs differ from the 2002 Decosta COLB and would be, by HIS logic, fakes.
Techdude knows where I am coming from and he knows, deep down, he has done nothing more than the myth has not been proven impossible. But something plausible does not mean it is possible or likely, let alone fact. His conclusions have gone from fact, to plausible. He knows where he is headed.
Drake,
Look back at my earlier posts and my comments on them – I was open to TD showing something real – finding a smoking gun. I WAS open to the idea this was all a forgery. But I warned him, fall short and that was the end of his credibility.
Not with me alone. He has a large audience watching and he fell way short of PROVING a forgery. That is his claim, and I debunked it easily.
Game over, checkmate.
I can’t believe the amount of internet bandwidth this non-issue has consumed. Imagine for a moment that someone proves it is a fake … what does that actually mean?
Nothing. Not a darned thing. They do change anything one iota. Folks, there are some rather talented and tenacious people here, I wish they would latch onto something that actually matters.
It all depends on what is is. O’Bama is certainly slippery: he redefines public to mean private so he will say he’s taking REAL public financing; meaning, of course, private financing.
So here he wants to show that he is a natural-born US citizen and so eligible to be President. But you are all missing the boat. Of course the document is real! (I only doubt that he found it tucked away in a book.) Certainly everyone who claims some form of forgery is smelling smoke but just can’t find the fire.
My guess has always been that the doc is real but is a deliberate distraction from his original Birth Certificate. And the more that people debate the COLB’s validity, the more the investigators look like fools and the less likely it is that anyone will uncover the truth. And I suspect the truth is that O’Bama’s real BC has some more or less unimportant information on it that he wants to keep concealed.
Perhaps his original BC states that
1- his birth religion is Muslim, which plays into American’s xenophobic fears (and also makes him an apostate in the eyes of other muslims around this world that he is so globe-trotting at the moment), or
2- he is illegitimate, which he may fear will prejudice him among middle conservatives, or
3- perhaps it states his race is white which might make him ‘not black enough’ to be elected as ‘the first black President’, or
4- his nationality is Kenyan (or British East Africa Protectorate) which might make him appear to be British intead of ‘natural-born’ American.
The point is that the COLB, however authentic and legal it may be, is not a birth certificate; and there is probably a reason for O’Bama not showing the original BC.
Here’s more of AJ’s non-existant “analysis” on the Michelle “Whitey” Obama tape, that AJ now says, he never said, existed at all! But, since AJ now says, he never said the “Whitey” did exist, I’m just making this up out of whole cloth, so please ignore what I’m linking to here, on AJ’s own Blog; it doesn’t exit, because…ah…AJ said it doesn’t:
“The tape may exist and Obama knows it. If Michelle is on tape and it is available to the GOP and Obama camp (thus there is no need to pay $1 million for a copy) then the question boils down to how to make this hurt the GOP as much as the Democrats.”
http://strata-sphere.com/blog/index.php/archives/5446
“I should note that I don’t think a video as damning as Johnson’s whisper campaign exists. If there is a video it is not as strong as hinted. Michelle could be simply recalling what she heard someone else saying as she grew up, or something.”
http://strata-sphere.com/blog/index.php/archives/5460
“The video can’t be all that damning, because the Super Delegates are still heading to Obama and the GOP is not going near the tape. So what’s happening now?”
http://strata-sphere.com/blog/index.php/archives/5490
“I am against Barack Obama, but this tape needs to come out and Michelle deserves an opportunity to attempt to put it into context.”
http://strata-sphere.com/blog/index.php/archives/5492
“These two versions are too close to be independent guesses. These two bloggers either talked to the same person, or persons who had seen the same tape. Booman’s excuse always seemed to me like grasping out of desperation. So maybe there is a tape.”
http://strata-sphere.com/blog/index.php/archives/5495
“And Larry Johnson has confirmed my speculation from yesterday that the transcripts that hit the leftward blogs yesterday do reflect the actual content of the video – which I assume Johnson confirmed with those sources he talked to, who talked to other sources, who saw the video. ”
“This revelation tells me (again) that the media has the tape and are working with someone to time its release, still expected for tomorrow sometime. ”
“As I suspected this has been shopped around to the media with some sitting on it for some reason.”
http://strata-sphere.com/blog/index.php/archives/5496
“My feeling all along has been the much hyped video tape of Michelle Obama with Mrs. Farrakhan is too weak to stand on its own, or it would be out by now (interesting how Larry Johnson somehow forgot to mention the Farrakhan connection to Barrack Obama was actually through the wives Obama and Farrakhan). ”
http://strata-sphere.com/blog/index.php/archives/5501
“The reason the video is not out yet is twofold: (a) because it is weak it required weeks of build up and establishing preconceptions by one Larry Johnson – avid Clinton support, and (b) because the risk of blow back against Clinton and the potential to cripple the Democrat Party for years to come made this a last ditch act. ”
http://strata-sphere.com/blog/index.php/archives/5501
“The video will come out sooner or later. But as Kim Priestap at Wizbang notes, the DNC and Dems leaders are forcing Super Delegates to choose their candidates by Friday – thus trying to force Clinton out of the race. That may not be enough time for the video to do its damage.”
“Clinton’s camp seems to have gotten cold feet on the Michelle Obama video. I don’t blame them, most of us (even those who oppose Obama as he stands now) want to give Michelle and Barrack there moment in the Sun as they enjoy the fact they made history. The video is not coming out any time soon, it would destroy the democrat party – permanently – if Obama was taken down by the tape this week.”
http://strata-sphere.com/blog/index.php/archives/5506
Michelle Obama Tape Probably Exists – Why Is The News Media Withholding it?
http://strata-sphere.com/blog/index.php/archives/5508
“If there is a copy of this tape, my guess is it is in the hands of the Illinois or Chicago based news media. They are Obama’s home town media and most culpable in letting the needed vetting of Obama happen. ”
http://strata-sphere.com/blog/index.php/archives/5539
Okay, I got tired of cutting and pasting; bottomline, AJ DEFNITIVELY many times, said the “Whitey” tape existed.
His “analysis” started out with his taking up a Larry C. Johnson Rumor, “analyzing” it, extrapolating from that, speculating upon the extrapolation, then confirming the speculation, then definitively stating the ‘confirmation” as fact!
When it became obvious, that the tape didn’t exit, then, it suddenly back to “if” a tape exists, and a “possible” tape, and “probably doesn’t exist”, and then blaming the whole thing on everyone else!
SIXTEEN different threads/posts, of a “Whitey” tape that doesn’t exist, based upon a single rumor perpetrated by a Leftwing Pro-Hillary Nutbag!
And EVERY single time, when AJ would post his “analysis”, I would post a comment saying the Exact…Same….Thing: “AJ, don’t do this, don’t say it exists, you’re basing your analysis upon a sole source, and that is Larry C. Johnson”.
So notice the analytical style at work here, take a position, “prove” it based upon “analysis”, but just leave a tad of wiggle room in there, just in case; then later on, when proven wrong, just flat out deny you ever said it, and instead, deny you said it all along.
See a pattern here, anyone?
You’ve done a masterful job here AJ; you’ve “proven” the COLB is NOT a “forgery”, you’ve progressed three quarters of the way thru your typical analytical pattern, and with just a key word here or there, you’ve left yourself a tad of wiggle room.
When the Daily Kos posted Obama COLB is proven to be an actual Forgery, you will immediately put up a post, claiming the whole time that you knew it was a fake, and then you pontificate about how the whole thing is the fault of the “rightwing nuts” and the “leftwing moonbats”.
Masterful AJ, masterful! I applaude you!
.
Rule of law is not a game. Whether an citizen has to prove his innocence or the government his guilt is not a joke. Sorry, but you dismiss what separates America from the rest of the world …
I don’t believe I ever said it was a game or acted like it was a game (in fact, as one who has a law degree, I think I’ve explained the way that legal presumptions operate much more accurately than you have). I was simply trying to point out the distinction between failure to prove that one is guilty and affirmatively proving that one is innocent. It’s an important distinction: Obama’s COLB has not been proven a forgery, but neither has it been proven authentic. Thus, it remains presumed authentic.
… with the cavalier attitude of a cultist who needs to believe, because he can’t defeat Obama on the merits of sound arguments.
First of all, my attitude was never cavalier. I have carefully attempted to chronicle my arguments in a respectful way. Second, you don’t know a damn thing about me. What my views are or what my motivations are. From the very beginning, I have been warning those who cry “forgery! forgery!” to be careful – that they should instead be trying to prove that it is not a forgery, in accordance with the scientific method, and only after they have failed could they begin to assume that it was a forgery. I believe I quite clearly defended you on the Atlasshrugs blog, when many were attacking you for daring to question their beloved silver bullet. How dare you call me a “cultist” when I have been doing nothing but trying to inject careful circumspection into both sides of the debate. Please point to one statement I have made that was hot-headed or the product of a self-deluded man on a mission.
You really don’t think you are impressing me do you? I have tough standards for being impressed.
I was never trying to impress you. However, quite frankly, I have become quite unimpressed with you. I thought you a serious blogger who, while willing to argue with hot-heads, was not one himself.
Techdude has not just produced three COLBs that differ from the 2007 BHO, but by the logic of his first post I noted here those COLBs differ from the 2002 Decosta COLB and would be, by HIS logic, fakes.
What’s so difficult to understand, AJ? Obviously HI changed the border pattern sometime between 2002 and 2007. No one is disputing that. Thus, you were quite right to cry foul when many “cultists” were doing nothing more than comparing the 2007 Obama COLB with the 2002 Decosta COLB. But Techdude has produced COLBs from 2006 to 2008 that all have the same border pattern (assuming he is being candid). The 2007 Obama COLB, which would fall smack dab in the middle of that period does not match that consistent border pattern. That’s pretty good evidence that something is at least fishy. I’m not saying that that proves the Obama COLB is a forgery, but it should quite legitimately raise eyebrows such that anyone who would dismiss it out of hand would run the risk of being called an Obama cultist (which I know you’re not). Heck, maybe there were two different border patterns they used from 2006 to 2008. All I’m saying is that the “myth” has not been “busted.” The Obama COLB has not been proven authentic; others have simply failed to prove it inauthentic.
Techdude knows where I am coming from and he knows, deep down, he has done nothing more than the myth has not been proven impossible. But something plausible does not mean it is possible or likely, let alone fact. His conclusions have gone from fact, to plausible. He knows where he is headed.
Maybe you’re right. Hopefully, one side will soon carry its burden of proof to show forgery or authenticity. Until then, we’ll just have to accept a presumption of authenticity.
I think the whole thing is ridiculous.
I also think that the Michelle tape thing is a non issue until and unless it actually appears, which it probably won’t.
And please, Dale do not bring immigration into this,wrong place. Besides I think AJ was more right than wrong on that issue.
Presumption of innocence is pertinent to criminal matters and has nothing to do either with what your neighbors think of you or what they ought to think of you. It is strictly a legal protection.
There is certainly no such standard in voting for someone for elected office. Otherwise, every time a politician told an unconvincing lie, the voters would have to accept it just because there was no hard evidence to the contrary. All Politician X would have to say is: ‘My new position is not due to political expediency. You must believe that I have changed my position with each new audience because each time I have sincerely changed my personal views.’ There is no proof against this. And so none can be required.
Similarly, whenever a politician, just like any other job applicant, presents his credentials, the employer must presume them to be forgeries. (This is so at least in licensed professions.) Employers expect that documents may be false and therefore must be verified. But the burden of proof rests on the applicant to prove rather than the employer to disprove authenticity. Experience shows that if a school or former employer does not corroborate an assertion on a CV (perhaps due to the simplest laziness), the applicant may be passed over.
In the final analysis, politicians are especially among those professionals for whom presumption of innocence is particularly ill-advised.
Terrye:
AJ has a Blog.
He posts his opinion on various issues.
AJ also has a comment thread.
That is for people to post their opinons on his opinions.
It seems everything is just fine, unless we have the temerity to actually disagree with AJ’s opinion.
If we post slavish agreement with him, I’ve never seen an issue.
Ah, but dare to disagree, then you see what happens:
you get insulted
denigrated
mocked
called names
patronized
condescended
told how he is an “expert” in this and that, and you are obviously not…then insulted, mocked and denigrated again.
If you push your opinions back too strongly, and respond to the insults, then you are banned for insulting the host!
That’s the pattern Terrye, and you know it; just so we’re clear.
I know, I know, it’s AJ’s Blog, his rules; that’s fine, that’s the way he wants it; okay, I get it.
Also, for the record Terrye, AJ clearly things this COLB issue is important, that is is something like his 5th major post on it; some people disagree, they get insulted.
He also wrote SIXTEEN major posts on the “Whitey” tape issue; obviously, 5 – 16 posts on various topics, AJ thinks they are important, and its his Blog.
Again, he puts them up as his “opinion”; we’re just not allowed to disagree with his “opinion”, that’s all!
Dale,
Are you beyond having your opinion challenged? Are you afraid of the debate? Have your posts ever been deleted from my blog?
I think not. But damn, you do whine a lot! What do you want Dale, sunshine up your impressive skirt?
So drake, you have a law degree yet think questioning someone’s ACTUAL innocence or guilt is beyond the law?
They hand out that parchment to just about anybody these days.
Poor Dale, you read all those posts and missed the point? All those posts pointed to reasons why it DID NOT exist. But in the chance it did, I still called it what it was – cowardly rumor mongering.
And now Dale wants to join the rumor mongering, to lay down with the dogs he so despises.
LOL! And he wants applause as he does it. Dale – you and Larry J agree, what else is there to say?
So drake, you have a law degree yet think questioning someone’s ACTUAL innocence or guilt is beyond the law?
They hand out that parchment to just about anybody these days.
You have absolutely no comprehension of what I’ve tried to explain to you, do you?
Dale, see an earlier thread:
http://strata-sphere.com/blog/index.php/archives/5669#comments
where I pointed out that Ray was illiterate, in the tank for Obama and a troll
I think that it is humorous that you have busted him, big time. I’m a little suspicious that he may be Norm incognito.
You get any more links to that good stuff, let us know
Redteam wrote:
Dale, see an earlier thread:
http://strata-sphere.com/blog/index.php/archives/5669#comments
where I pointed out that Ray was illiterate, in the tank for Obama and a troll
I think that it is humorous that you have busted him, big time. I’m a little suspicious that he may be Norm incognito.
Let me get this straight – I’ve been ‘outed’ by you as a supporter of Obama – while I’ve been broadcasting my very recent growing support for him AFTER Hillary? That’s mighty perceptive of you. Keep up the good work.
Ray
I think not. But damn, you do whine a lot! What do you want Dale, sunshine up your impressive skirt?
Okay AJ; that’s a good one, I admit! Nice…
Ray: I’ll be respectful of AJ, and I’ll take his stuff, because
a) he’s a smart guy
b) his heart and head are in the right place
c) we disagree on this issue
d) despite above, he does have what I acknowledge I don’t have, and that is “technical expertise”
e) for all those reasons, he can tell me to piss off, and call me names, and we can disagree, because in the end, I respect him, and like his Blog, and I know that even if he is right, and I’m wrong, or vice versa, we’ll still get along at the end of the day.
But you, you little weasel, get NO such break from me!
I post this comment in toto, from the Atlas Blog, so every other reader over here, can see EXACTLY what a liar and fraud and fake you are, so no go away, WORM, you have been exposed, and CRUSHED!
I don’t know AJ from Adam, but based on his post above it certainly appears his ego is impeding any rational anaylsis to the topic. Implying that anyone who buys into the notion that the COLB is possibly a fake is mentally inferior and making other condescending remarks points to a lack of substance in AJ’s position and some perceived weakness in his previous analysis. If he was so certain of his point of view, he could certainly support that in a straightforawrd manner without the hystrionic estrogen laced tirade.
While AJ may take some comfort in the support of a provlaimed expert from Austrailia in his views, he may want to choose his allies more carefully.
It would appear that Mr. Ray Murphy is an infamous troll in the Land Down Under. Ray us a busy man. He is a self professed expert in many fields:
Legal expert
http://phorums.com.au/showthread.php?t=108557
http://phorums.com.au/showthread.php?t=108530
http://forums.travel.com/australia-railway-forum/227717-redfern-burns.html
“Your reputation for being wrong, often, coupled with my unfamiliarity
with Australian law makes asking the good folks in aus.legal to comment
pretty darned reasonable.”
http://www.slashlegal.com/showthread.php?t=71500
Space Aliens and Paranormal
http://alientalk.org/6178-time-top-study.html#post24184
Astrology
http://alt.nntp2http.com/astrology/pro/2008/06/8704d86f927751dbdd52fcd0483e14d3.html
http://alt.nntp2http.com/astrology/pro/2008/06/046366f99e1851eb4538f3fbcc1e6fab.html
http://www.legalspring.com/articles/misc-legal/20040430/0_Edmond-Wollmann-acce.html
http://www.groupsrv.com/science/about37273.html
http://www.groupsrv.com/science/about38596.html
Computer Expert
http://www.disnorge.no/slektsforum/viewtopic.php?p=176084
Wireless Phones
http://www.wirelessforums.org/aus-comms-mobile/re-pay-destination-43999.html
Genealogy
http://genforum.genealogy.com/melody/messages/11.html
http://www.disnorge.no/slektsforum/viewtopic.php?t=39969
Ray’s expertise as demonstrated in his acumen in technology has earned him the moniker “Raytard”, bestowed by his fellow Aussies:
http://www.groupsrv.com/science/about38596.html
Ray’s legal acumen has likewise earned him the nickname “Raytard”
http://www.slashlegal.com/showthread.php?t=6378
While AJ has garnered himself a devote ally in his position, based on Ray’s performance here and the reputation he has earned in the Land of OZ, such an allegience would lead me to question my conclusions.
DaleinAtlanta wrote:
Terrye:
AJ has a Blog.
He posts his opinion on various issues.
AJ also has a comment thread.
That is for people to post their opinons on his opinions.
It seems everything is just fine, unless we have the temerity to actually disagree with AJ’s opinion.
If we post slavish agreement with him, I’ve never seen an issue.
Ah, but dare to disagree, then you see what happens:
you get insulted
denigrated
mocked
called names
patronized
condescended
told how he is an “expert” in this and that, and you are obviously not…then insulted, mocked and denigrated again.
[.....]
————
But how would I know if that is broadly true? I mean you’ve done nothing but lie about me ALL DAY today, so I figure that there’s a very high probability that you do it to others as well – and probably moreso to switched on people like AJ.
Even if by some chance you’re telling the truth this time – isn’t that sort of thing better than being lied about? At least people can see it f it happens, but with lies like yours, no one really knows.
Ray
P.S. I got disconnected at the other group, immediately after someone requested it, so I’ll have to talk to Techdude from here and get my head kicked in by you from here as well I guess
LOL! And he wants applause as he does it. Dale – you and Larry J agree, what else is there to say?
AJ, that’s overstating it a bit! I’ve never asked for any applause, anywhere, ever!
And, I don’t agree with Larry J anywhere!
If you care to remember correctly, you agreed with Larry J on the “Whitey” tape, at least sixteen times!
I disagreed with you, and he, EVERY SINGLE TIME!
If you are refering to this issue with the COLB, you are misstating my position once again.
LCJ says it’s a forgery, because Obama is not an American citizen, he was born in Kenya, or Canada, or some such nonsense.
My point, and my only point, from the very beginning has been very simple:
Obama is a PROVEN US Citizen, born in Hawaii, with a valid US passport, which he has proven to the US Government. And since he also sits on sensitive committes in the US Senate, he has some sort of Security Clearance and has had some sort of FBI Background Check!
That’s irrefutable, in my opinion.
My only contention, is that there is NO WAY a respectable Presidential Campaign, would let a crazy Nutbag Leftwing Blog, like the Daily Kos, have access to, or publish, Obama’s real COLB.
IF the Obama campaign was REALLY worried about the COLB as an issue, they’d have called a newsconference, and handed copies of the COLB over to reporters, and that would be that.
My theory, and quote, it is a “theory” is that the Daily Kos, just wanted to get ahead of the issue, because they are a bunch of nuts, as usual, and one of their Nutbags decided he’d gin up his own, to “prove” the rumors about Obama were not true.
That idiot, McKinnon, has basically admitted that in his interview with the Israelinsider!
That has been, and is, my only point, and only ever will be.
Now, knowing the laws of probability, and “gotcha”; watch Obama’s legitimate BC come out from Kenya, just to PROVE that my comment above is wrong.
But right now, if I was a betting man, I’d say I’m right, Obama is a US Citizen, born in Hawaii, the nonsense about his mother being too young is a red herring.
But, I also stand by my contention that McKinnon ginned up his own COLB because he’s a Daily Kook Nut, and he wanted to “prove” that Obama was born in Hawaii when actually, to anyone with 2cents logic, would walk thru the problem like did, and determine that no such “proof” is needed, if he has a Valid US Passport, and a Security Clearance/Background Check due to his US Senate duties.
So AJ, considering the source of the COLB, the Daily Kook, and McKinnon’s own admitted role in this, I still don’t think its a great leap of logic, to suspect foul play on this particular COLB, with absolutely NO implication that Obama’s citizenship is in question.
I’m hammering the Daily Kook, and McKinnon AJ, NOT Obama’s legitimate right to be US President, nor questioning his birth in Hawaii.
I’ve always said that, I still say that.
AJ, look how another kook, Larry C. Johnson, spun the world up on the “Whitey” tape?
Why is it such a stretch, to believe that another Kook, McKinnon, and the Daily Kooks would do the same?, without there being any question as to Obama’s legitimate birthplace/date etc.?
Why is it I can’t get that message across to you?
Ray: SHUT UP!
No one has lied about you, you’ve been OUTTED!
Here, this is from Atlas everyone, in case you haven’t seen it!
While AJ may take some comfort in the support of a provlaimed expert from Austrailia in his views, he may want to choose his allies more carefully.
It would appear that Mr. Ray Murphy is an infamous troll in the Land Down Under. Ray us a busy man. He is a self professed expert in many fields:
Legal expert
http://phorums.com.au/showthread.php?t=108557
http://phorums.com.au/showthread.php?t=108530
http://forums.travel.com/australia-railway-forum/227717-redfern-burns.html
“Your reputation for being wrong, often, coupled with my unfamiliarity
with Australian law makes asking the good folks in aus.legal to comment
pretty darned reasonable.”
http://www.slashlegal.com/showthread.php?t=71500
Space Aliens and Paranormal
http://alientalk.org/6178-time-top-study.html#post24184
Astrology
http://alt.nntp2http.com/astrology/pro/2008/06/8704d86f927751dbdd52fcd0483e14d3.html
http://alt.nntp2http.com/astrology/pro/2008/06/046366f99e1851eb4538f3fbcc1e6fab.html
http://www.legalspring.com/articles/misc-legal/20040430/0_Edmond-Wollmann-acce.html
http://www.groupsrv.com/science/about37273.html
http://www.groupsrv.com/science/about38596.html
Computer Expert
http://www.disnorge.no/slektsforum/viewtopic.php?p=176084
Wireless Phones
http://www.wirelessforums.org/aus-comms-mobile/re-pay-destination-43999.html
Genealogy
http://genforum.genealogy.com/melody/messages/11.html
http://www.disnorge.no/slektsforum/viewtopic.php?t=39969
Ray’s expertise as demonstrated in his acumen in technology has earned him the moniker “Raytard”, bestowed by his fellow Aussies:
http://www.groupsrv.com/science/about38596.html
Ray’s legal acumen has likewise earned him the nickname “Raytard”
http://www.slashlegal.com/showthread.php?t=6378
While AJ has garnered himself a devote ally in his position, based on Ray’s performance here and the reputation he has earned in the Land of OZ, such an allegience would lead me to question my conclusions.
Ray, NO ONE, has lied about you, in fact, we haven’t abused you enough!
AJ gets a pass, because we know he’s a smart guy, with experience; whether we agree with him or not.
You get no such latitude!
Alright, I guess my comments are getting stuck in the Spam que; because I put three LONG ones up, that haven’t shown.
So I’ll say again, don’t fall for “Ray’s” woe is me, I’m a victim here; he’s been abused, justly so, on the Atlas Shrugs site, and exposed, as I said, as a fraud:
And, again, just for the record, AJ gets a pass “Ray”, because we KNOW he’s smart and has expertise and it’s his Bog, and we know his head and heart are in the right place, some of us just disagree on this issue, and this an argument among brothers.
You slimeball, get no such pass, as this PROVES:
I don’t know AJ from Adam, but based on his post above it certainly appears his ego is impeding any rational anaylsis to the topic. Implying that anyone who buys into the notion that the COLB is possibly a fake is mentally inferior and making other condescending remarks points to a lack of substance in AJ’s position and some perceived weakness in his previous analysis. If he was so certain of his point of view, he could certainly support that in a straightforawrd manner without the hystrionic estrogen laced tirade.
While AJ may take some comfort in the support of a provlaimed expert from Austrailia in his views, he may want to choose his allies more carefully.
It would appear that Mr. Ray Murphy is an infamous troll in the Land Down Under. Ray us a busy man. He is a self professed expert in many fields:
Legal expert
http://phorums.com.au/showthread.php?t=108557
http://phorums.com.au/showthread.php?t=108530
http://forums.travel.com/australia-railway-forum/227717-redfern-burns.html
“Your reputation for being wrong, often, coupled with my unfamiliarity
with Australian law makes asking the good folks in aus.legal to comment
pretty darned reasonable.”
http://www.slashlegal.com/showthread.php?t=71500
Space Aliens and Paranormal
http://alientalk.org/6178-time-top-study.html#post24184
Astrology
http://alt.nntp2http.com/astrology/pro/2008/06/8704d86f927751dbdd52fcd0483e14d3.html
http://alt.nntp2http.com/astrology/pro/2008/06/046366f99e1851eb4538f3fbcc1e6fab.html
http://www.legalspring.com/articles/misc-legal/20040430/0_Edmond-Wollmann-acce.html
http://www.groupsrv.com/science/about37273.html
http://www.groupsrv.com/science/about38596.html
Computer Expert
http://www.disnorge.no/slektsforum/viewtopic.php?p=176084
Wireless Phones
http://www.wirelessforums.org/aus-comms-mobile/re-pay-destination-43999.html
Genealogy
http://genforum.genealogy.com/melody/messages/11.html
http://www.disnorge.no/slektsforum/viewtopic.php?t=39969
Ray’s expertise as demonstrated in his acumen in technology has earned him the moniker “Raytard”, bestowed by his fellow Aussies:
http://www.groupsrv.com/science/about38596.html
Ray’s legal acumen has likewise earned him the nickname “Raytard”
http://www.slashlegal.com/showthread.php?t=6378
While AJ has garnered himself a devote ally in his position, based on Ray’s performance here and the reputation he has earned in the Land of OZ, such an allegience would lead me to question my conclusions.
drake.j.harvey wrote:
” But Techdude has produced COLBs from 2006 to 2008 that all have the same border pattern (assuming he is being candid). The 2007 Obama COLB, which would fall smack dab in the middle of that period does not match that consistent border pattern. That’s pretty good evidence that something is at least fishy. [...]
========
Is it really a sign of something being fishy when the Health Dept spokeswoman and a journalist and others have verified that the Obama COLB looks like other 2007 certificates already?
Also, does it really look fishy when the alleged purpose of the forgery was to pretend that Obama was born in Hawaii instead of somewhere outside the U.S. when Obama knew all along that there is a law saying he was ok if his mother had lived in the U.S. for 12 months (contrary to what we’ve been hearing recently about 5 years residence after the age of 16). See Texasdarlin’s blog for recent posts about it.
If the above is accurate, then the conspiracists have gone and demolished the motive for forgery on their own blog. – which will only make AJStrata even more smug
)
Ray
Dale, seems we’ve been addressing Ray incorrectly:
“Ray’s expertise as demonstrated in his acumen in technology has earned him the moniker “Raytard”, bestowed by his fellow Aussies:
http://www.groupsrv.com/science/about38596.html
Ray’s legal acumen has likewise earned him the nickname “Raytard”
http://www.slashlegal.com/showthread.php?t=6378”
Seems his real moniker is Raytard, please correct yourself in the future.
Yep, 4 are now stuck in the que, guess its up to you AJ to decide which, if any to let thru then.
Redteam: Yes, I’ve been trying to post that Atlas thread over here, Four times, that completely and thoroughly destroys and CRUSHES “Ray” for the liar and fraud that he is.
And he STILL has the stones to come over there, and whine about being a “victim” of my “lies”!
Unfreakingbelieveable!
Anyways everyone, for more on “Raytard”, go over to this link on Atlas, and look at the top comment!
http://atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com/atlas_shrugs/2008/07/atlas-exclusive/comments/page/3/#comments
It is really unbelieveable, then come back here, and watch “Ray” whine about being a “victim” of “lies”!
DaleinAtlanta wrote:
Redteam: Yes, I’ve been trying to post that Atlas thread over here, Four times, that completely and thoroughly destroys and CRUSHES “Ray” for the liar and fraud that he is.
And he STILL has the stones to come over there, and whine about being a “victim” of my “lies”!
======
Hang on, hang on, you’re wandering off-topic a bit here. This is not about my reputation for closing down bad groups and boring the most feral trolls on the net witless. We’re supposed to be discussing busted myths. If you keep this up I’m going to have to marginalize you.
Ray
Is it really a sign of something being fishy when the Health Dept spokeswoman and a journalist and others have verified that the Obama COLB looks like other 2007 certificates already?
Ray, if this is true, then I’m very interested in it. As I’ve tried to make clear from the beginning, I’m not on any side, just looking for the truth. Could you please direct me to an authoritative source where you learned this information? I’m being quite serious.
there is a law saying he was ok if his mother had lived in the U.S. for 12 months (contrary to what we’ve been hearing recently about 5 years residence after the age of 16)
I’m researching that right now. I’ll get back to you about that.
After researching it, you appear to be correct:
8 USC 1409(c), Children Born Out of Wedlock:
(c) Notwithstanding the provision of subsection (a) of this section, a person born, after December 23, 1952, outside the United States and out of wedlock shall be held to have acquired at birth the nationality status of his mother, if the mother had the nationality of the United States at the time of such person’s birth, and if the mother had previously been physically present in the United States or one of its outlying possessions for a continuous period of one year.
If I am reading this correctly (and I always welcome corrections), Obama, even if he was born in Kenya, is eligible for the Presidency.
Okay, now I’ve done my part. Please do yours. Please supply authority for your claim that
the Health Dept spokeswoman and a journalist and others have verified that the Obama COLB looks like other 2007 certificates
TECHDUDE’S ERROR NO.1
==================
Techdude wrote in his “semi final” FINAL report:
After receiving Michelle’s COLB I made several calls were made to various departments in the Hawaiian State Government in an attempt to better understand the process and procedures used to create, print, and distribute copies of the COLB form. While I was brushed off or hung up upon by almost all of the people I contacted I did manage to talk with a computer technician who was familiar with the computers and printers used by the Department of Health and the clerk’s offices. [.....]
When asked if a COLB can be printed off center he said it was not possible and any misfeed would simply jam in the printer. This would mean that the KOS image which is off center and would have simply jammed in the printer.
AND
This is our second visual indicator that the KOS image is not authentic as all of the other known COLBs are almost perfectly centered.
[SEE image No.4]
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
NOT TRUE. It is not only possible for their laser printer to print
off-centre, I have just received a certificate which is printed well
off-centre in the opposite direction to the KOS image. This of course doesn’t prove that the paper was fed in by the laser printer’s feed system off-centre; it may well have occurred because of the setting on the PC being used.
Ray
drake.j.harvey wrote:
After researching it, you appear to be correct:
8 USC 1409(c), Children Born Out of Wedlock:
(c) Notwithstanding the provision of subsection (a) of this section, a person born, after December 23, 1952, outside the United States and out of wedlock shall be held to have acquired at birth the nationality status of his mother, if the mother had the nationality of the United States at the time of such person’s birth, and if the mother had previously been physically present in the United States or one of its outlying possessions for a continuous period of one year.
If I am reading this correctly (and I always welcome corrections), Obama, even if he was born in Kenya, is eligible for the Presidency.
=======================
I’ve been wondering about 2 things in relation to that section:
(1) Did it give citizenship rights to children of unwed mothers AFTER the children of married mothers had already been given that right some time earlier, and
(2) Is that section also conferring “natural born” status or just citizenship?
I’m also wondering why Obama (on the Smears site I think) cited “section 14″ of some Act as giving him him a “natural born citizen” status . Would that be routine for everyone, and if not, why would Obama have used it?
===================================
Okay, now I’ve done my part. Please do yours. Please supply authority for your claim that
Ok, here’s the Politifact article which gives 2 witnesses – the journalist’s own words “it’s identical” and the rep for Hawaii Health. One may also deduce that there was a 3rd witness by the mention of the staff member who thought he saw the seal while analysing the KOS document. One would think that if he had the ability to see what looked like a seal, he would have noticed a “rogue border” on the document.
[POLITIFACT]
http://www.tampabay.com/news/article648060.ece
I’ve got more somewhere, but that’s all for another 12 hours.
Ray
Obama’s marriage certificate etc.
In Politifact article
http://politifact.com/truth-o-meter/article/2008/jun/27/obamas-birth-certificate-part-ii/
DaleinAtlanta LYING AGAIN:
=======================
Dale, get a grip and stop trying to deceive people. On the Atlas site you just told a poster this:
——
JimBimbo: Ah, sorry son to embarrass you in front of the entire board, but you just missed the ENTIRE POINT of this three week imbroglio!
The COLB that the Obama campaign, that they published on their website, they say they got off the DAILY KOS site as “proof”!
So, If the Obama campaign had their “own” COLB, why did they have to publish the Daily Kos one, and claim it as their own!
=================================
Now go back and tell him what REALLY happened.
Another witness via FactCheck
http://www.factcheck.org/askfactcheck/has_obamas_birth_certificate_been_disclosed.html
These links are not meant as publicity for Obama, but as a part of his history to show his connections with Hawaii.
[March 17th 2007 New York Times article]
By Jennifer Steinhauer
“Obama, whose parents met at the University of Hawaii, was born here
on Aug. 4, 1961. [.....]
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/03/17/us/politics/17hawaii.html?_r=1&oref...
=============
“Barack Obama and His Hawaii Roots”
June 15, 2008
http://www.hawaiitopia.com/?p=16
=============
We’re supposed to be discussing busted myths. If you keep this up I’m going to have to marginalize you.
Ray
Weasel; you can, and will “marginalize” no one; you’ve been exposed here, and over at Atlas, for the fraud, liar, troll and kook that you are!
End of discussion!
Dale:
Yes, AJ has a blog, it is his blog. If he wants to write it in pig Latin he can.
I just think a lot of this is mute. Are we supposed to believe that both the Hillary Clinton campaign and the RNC overlooked the fact that Obama’s not legally qualified to run due to some hinky something or other with his birth certificate?
I doubt they would have overlooked that.
Are we supposed to believe that both the Hillary Clinton campaign and the RNC overlooked the fact that Obama’s not legally qualified to run due to some hinky something or other with his birth certificate?
I doubt they would have overlooked that.
Terrye: Please read my posts on this, PLEASE!
I’ve said all along, for ME, the issue is NOT that Obama is not qualified!
I’ve said it a dozen times now!
The fact you just came back with this statement, proves my point, on this; you all just don’t read.
Obama IS Qualified; I said it every single time!
My only point, on this whole issue: even the Obama campaign wouldn’t be stupid enough, to let the Leftwing Daily Kook website, be responsible for his own, real, COLB!
They’re not that crazy!
I say, the Daily Kook website’s Obama COLB, has NOTHING to do with Obama’s REAL COLB.
But again, that’s must my “gut”, and my opinion, based upon nothing but my commonsense, and I admittedly have no way to prove it.
We just have to wait and see, if the Obama campaign for real, proves it or disproves it.
This whole argument over technical analysis and what such stuff, won’t prove my point, that I think the Daily Kook website faked THEIR VERIONS of Obama’s COLB; my theory in no way confirms nor denies Obama’s citizenship nor eligibility to run for President.
DaleinAtlanta wrote:
Obama IS Qualified; I said it every single time!
My only point, on this whole issue: even the Obama campaign wouldn’t be stupid enough, to let the Leftwing Daily Kook website, be responsible for his own, real, COLB!
————-
Obama was on good terms with the KOS site 12 months before they were given his COLB – so it makes sense that they would get it.
Obama needs bloggers to help keep liars like you in check.
Ray
Dale wrote:
This whole argument over technical analysis and what such stuff, won’t prove my point, that I think the Daily Kook website faked THEIR VERIONS of Obama’s COLB
————
Now why would they do that to him if Obama wrote a letter to Daily Kos three years beforehand in September 2005 and later mentioned it in his book “The Audacity of Hope” on page 41. (I haven’t read his book but was given that information).
Ray
Go Flame somewhere else Troll, you’ve been outted, disgraced, and CRUSHED!
Dale,
I will decide who stays or goes. And thanks for the effort to salvage my rep at Atlas Shrugs. Sadly, I have been banned again!
LOL! Which tells me some folks don’t like it when the analysis is turned on them.
Cheers, AJStrata
Dale,
I will decide who stays or goes.
AJ, you and I both know I can’t make that decision, it was a “comment” only, and one he deserves.
Besides, we both know he wouldn’t listen to me anyhow! It’s just to annoy him! It’s fun to piss him off actually!
“And thanks for the effort to salvage my rep at Atlas Shrugs. Sadly, I have been banned again!”
Wow, I hate the whole “banning” thing, actually, especially if you “ban” someone who disagrees with you.
I disagree with Pam for banning the weasel “Ray”, and I certainly disagree with her banning you; I didn’t know she did that.
AJ, I was’t trying to salvage your “reputation”; I don’t think that’s necessary, nor something I can do; and I don’t think it is needed anyway, you’re “reputation” shouldn’t be shot over there just because everyone gets a bit hot about this subject.
I was just trying to point out that we could all disagree on this issue, vehemently if necessary, but that we are all eventually, on the same side, which is most important to me, anyhow.
Dale. booted from Pam’s and Texasdarlings sites for asking for their technical credentials to discern who had the background to decide whether I or Techdude had the better case.
Still, thanks for the valiant effort.
That IS a bit thinskinned, frankly.
Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
http://web.israelinsider.com/Articles/Politics/12993.htm
latest, I guess. Says the Colby thing is a total fake.
Dunno, kinda don’t care.
But there’s some reason why Hillary is buying up Hillary2012
type domain names.
She is expecting Obama to lose in 2008. That’s why she sabotaged
any moves for the formation of a “dream ticket”. She didn’t want to
do down with the shi*.
One thinks she knows something.
I predicted this three months ago.
TECHDUDE’S ERROR NO.1(a) – re: off centre Kos doc.
==================
After examining the Michele and KOS documents tonight, I noticed that the reason why there is more space on the right side of the KOS document is not because of any forgery, but because the (then) new 2007 document had the new wider cross-hatch border design incorporated into the COLB template and it was narrower than the previous borders and no attempt was made by the Hawaii Health to move the narrower document to a new ‘centred’ position before printing their COLB’s
.
TECHDUDE’S ERROR NO.2 – re: Text out of alignment
==================
The reason why the KOS text is out of alignment (in relation to previous versions of the COLB’s) is not because of any forgery, but because the (then) new 2007 COLB was shorter in depth, as well as being narrower than the previous versions, and the computer operator, after having loaded tghe new border and seeing that the COLB’s code number at the very bottom of the page, was running into it, reduced all the text from it’s standard 100% size to roughly 98.7% to make it fit.
This reduction in size also accounts for the much smaller sideways shift that was seen in Techdude’s moving GIF’s. The reduction in size of the text to an irregular percentage such as 98.7 would have slightly distorted some or all of the characters and also caused microscopic lateral movement of them when the individual characters had to “jump” to make best fits into the 300 ppi matrix of the original scan for the JPEG.
The operator also altered the “Date filed” vertical depth, which was unnecessary, but that may well have been the result of an earlier attempt to alter spacing, rather than reduce the overall size the text layout.
Ray
Ray,
Thanks for doing the analysis – you confirmed my suspicions. Now, if we could only find some other COLBs in that format!
AJStrata
Dale, so you noticed also that ‘tard has been trolling here for a whole week now and is addressing his disagree’ers as troll’s, funny isn’t it.
AJStrata wrote:
Ray,
Thanks for doing the analysis – you confirmed my suspicions. Now, if we could only find some other COLBs in that format!
What about that journalist who wrote the article mentioned at the top of this thread? She may be able to give you a partial scan and perhaps even a short email that you can quote.
I’ll post some more of Techdude’s errors (or imaginings, or whatever they’re supposed to be called) in the next 24 hours.
Ray
Ray,
We think alike, I have a request in to her.
Here’s a decent sounding bunch of people commenting on the imagined forgery:
http://pandagon.net/index.php/site/comments/barack_obama_was_made_from_clay_and_the_saliva_of_the_gods/
[...] They’re still convinced Obama’s birth certificate is a forgery. Strata isn’t. [...]
[...] They’re still convinced Obama’s birth certificate is a forgery. Strata isn’t.
————————————————————-
OK – UPDATE (anyone – in any style)
————————————————————-
Strata – isn’t convinced it’s a forgery
Ray – has never believed it’s a forgery
Obama – knows it’s not a forgery
Hawaii Health – probably knows it’s not a forgery but cannot say
Politifact – doesn’t believe it’s a forgery
.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Techdude – believes/says it is a forgery
Pamela Geller – believes/says it’s a forgery
Polarik – believes/says it’s a forgery
“Thanks for doing the analysis – you confirmed my suspicions. Now, if we could only find some other COLBs in that format!”
AJ, see, this is why I didn’t offer you the link which I knew techdude had showing that the recent borders on 2008 COLB’s did not match Obama’s disproving your claim. Because I knew you would jump onto another claim just as quickly now because “someone told you” “there is another format that matches Obama’s and someone has seen it!” Lol. Hilarious.
Instead of looking at the evidence directly and asking “Why isn’t Obama just releasing his COLB and ending this nonsense?” you instead say, “Now, if we could only find some other COLBs in that format!” But all you will uncover is more forgeries from sympathetic Obama supporters like Opendna has done.
Face facts. The reason Obama doesn’t release his real COLB (like McCain has) is because either it doesn’t exist, or it doesn’t look anything like the image that has been posted at Kos. The Obama camp has the document since they scanned it, right? Why don’t they just produce it? A simple matter right?
Because Obama can’t.
But instead of just going to the source AJ, you keep on searching for that elusive COLB in that “other format”. Lol. This is something the Obama campaign could have put to rest EASILY over a month ago IF what you say is true. But they haven’t. I wonder why?
bomza wrote:
This is something the Obama campaign could have put to rest EASILY over a month ago IF what you say is true. But they haven’t. I wonder why?
Look, Obama and his crew may very well be in charge of the most powerful force on earth before too long, and need to stare-down some pretty rugged opponents — and you want him and his crew to make fools of themselves by acceding the the infantile demands of trolls who don’t really believe he would be stupid enough to distribute a forged birth record on the internet.
Ray
Bomza – don’t be so thick, I wrote the post about other COLBs before the comments. Of course I suspected there were other COLBs – what do you think the post is about????
[...] "Forensics Expert: Obama Birth Certificate is a Forgery : NO QUARTER" The nitwit that wrote the article above titled it as a "Birth Certificate," when the subject is a "Certificate of Live Birth" that was presented by KOS, not a birth certificate. Like I said mentioned earlier, with all the money in the Pubs coffers (and during Hillary’s campaign) they would had already done all the research and took this to court and won had there been real evidence to prove that Obama is not legally eligible to be president. The Strata-Sphere The End Of The COLB Cult – Myth Busted Again [...]
Understanding how all of Hawaii’s COLB borders were constructed is a key to seeing that there was no forgery. Anyone with rounded experience in graphic reproduction, rather than just playing with Photoshop, can see that the borders were originally drawn in as ‘vector’ images in a computer drawing program like Aldus Freehand or Adobe Illustrator, but they were not drawn as a complete 8 x 8 inch square border.
Originally only one side of the rectangle was drawn, and it was then duplicated three times and then the 4 sections were joined, but because the cross-hatching design required alignment, it was necessary to overlap the sections to achieve that. The amount of overlap was dictated by the pitch of the cross-hatching. In the case of the Obama COLB, which had a greater pitch, there was more overlap.
All of Hawaii’s borders were (amateurisly) constructed in this way, and all were out-of-square because of visual line-up in the graphics program, instead of being lined up with numeric specifications.There was also no attempt to remove the (objectionable) end lines on the border segments.
Ideally the borders should have been constructed or drawn as a
complete unit so that there would have been perfect alignment and squareness and no joining marks visible.
Now if anyone had tried to forge the Hawaii style of making borders, they would have had to copy the amateurish style mentioned above, i.e
* Make one side of a border
* Duplicate it 3 times
* Join 4 sections roughly by eye
* Leave in tell-tale signs of the joins
PLUS accidentally use the wrong pitch
PLUS accidentally use thinner lines that would break up when printed – unless they were horizontal or vertical.
The graphic artist for Hawaii actually DID do that, but the thinner
lines used in the 2007 COLB would have been an experiment that seemed like a good idea at the time, but later abandoned because of the impossibility of getting good solid black diagonal lines, especially against a coloured background.
This objectionable breaking-up of very thin diagonal lines that we see in laser printing does not occur with real printing, because the image would always be be composed of jet black solid halftone dots of various sizes – instead of multi- coloured dots that range from off-white through to light green and dark grey. This is why it pays to know how a piece of artwork will be reproduced, or typically handled afterwards with current technology such as scanners or photocopiers, JPG’s or GIF’s etc.
——————–
I just had a thought – the border of the Obama COLB for 2007 was probably used on all other Hawaii certificates that they issued, so it will pay to track down (extracts) of marriage certificates, which should be easier to access.
Ray
[...] Stratasphere.com [...]