Jul 12 2008
How 9-11 Helped Cause The Obama Birth Certificate Silliness
There is a lot of silliness out there regarding Barrack Obama’s Birth Certificate (as I posted here, here and here). Folks can review my posts and see how the silliness grew at each step the conspiracy theory was debunked, because it was reborn anew on the desperate wishes of those who cannot find any better arguments to oppose Barrack Obama’s presidential campaign. What has me amazed the most is that much of this conspiracy myth is tied directly to 9-11!
To recap briefly, there has been a totally irrelevant debate regarding where Obama was born, how long his mother lived in the newly minted state of Hawaii, etc. The theories all evolve around questioning Obama’s citizenship, and therefore his qualification to run for the presidency. In an attempt to simply shut down the speculation the Obama campaign, along with the DailyKos website, released a scanned image of a Certificate of Live Birth (COLB). The fact it was an image of a scanned hard copy document led to all sorts of naive conclusions from the “COLB truthers”, building the storm of wild speculation which has morphed into a weird obsession for many.
First some claimed the image was a forgery because the image was an Adobe Photo Shop file – until some more pragmatic people with cooler heads pointed out that Photo Shop is a perfectly normal program to grab scanned images, to cover up information that someone doesn’t want public (like an identification number on the COLB) and to make web-friendly versions of the image file that would take less bandwidth to download. That should have pruned back the excitement a bit. No such luck.
Once that myth was debunked, the new theory was the image was a fake because there was no evidence of a state seal, authority signature and date stamp on the back of the document (duh!, they only distributed an image of the front). But technology came to bear and the date stamp was detected as well as impressions of a state seal and signature area (though faint). Myth two busted, but that did not dim the hopes of some!
I guess I forgot all those crazies who confused a 2007 issued COLB with a 1961 Birth Certificate, the ones who started this mess. But that is such a naive mistake I keep trying to not even think about it. You know who you are, so let’s move on.
Anyway, things got even crazier as the fringe kept grasping to save their conspiracy theory from the dustbin of history. When a poster at Kos took the image of the COLB and doctored it using MacPaint, the junior sleuths were at it again claiming this doctored image was actually the source of the Kos image (and a companion one on the Obama campaign site). I debunked that fantasy in the links above, and a forensic document expert at Atlas Shrugs confirmed my conclusions, while simultaneously creating the next myth of a clear forgery. The mock-up, known as the Opendna image, is of much lower resolution and cannot be the source of the other two images.
You can go to the last two posts above to see my conclusions, but I found the last theory at Atlas Shrugs to verge on the stupid. Sorry, but as the options for keeping the myth alive died out, the ‘logic’ to find one more way to salvage it went well into the bizarre. Techdude, the computer forensic expert at Atlas Shrugs, noted the glaringly obvious fact that a Sep 2002 COLB for one Ms Decosta was dramatically different from the Jun 2007 COLB for Barrack Obama. And they are different, but the reason why is quite interesting.
What Techdude took as a really, really bad forgery I had always concluded represented an updated background and paper for the Hawaii COLB. It never occurred to me any serious adult would confuse two clearly different documents, separated by 5 years, as being some kind of forgery. BTW, Techdude was not the only major conspiracy theorist to jump this shark (and I will be using this link to provide other links to the documents in question).
Which brings me now to 9-11. I decided to go out and verify my conclusion that Hawaii had updated their vital records formats (Death and Birth) sometime between Sep 2002 and June 2007. And in doing so, it is needless to say I hit pay dirt. Hopefully Techdude can fold this information into his forthcoming forensic analysis (before he comes out with another side-splitting announcement).
So here is how 9-11 has fed the Obama BC mythology:
After 9-11 the Federal and State governments started work on the Real ID Act, which became law in 2005. The Real ID act was meant to tighten up the ubiquitous state Drivers License documents and process for obtaining these IDs – which we all know are used to gain access to commercial flights across this country. Much of this act was promoted by conservatives and resisted by liberals – which underpins the ironic connection between this act and the last vestiges of the Obama BC myth.
Part of the Real ID act was efforts by states to tighten up the documents used to get the IDs – things like birth certificates. Many things were changed so as to make sure state processes could not be easily gamed by terrorists to get drivers licenses, etc. This leads us to Hawaii and the two COLBs.
Let’s begin with a look at the Sep 2002 Decosta Hawaii COLB, realizing this was issued only one year after 9-11 and 3 years prior to the Real ID Act. Use the link above to see full size of the following image:
Reviewing the document one sees what looks to be an over-zeroxed background (just look at the blurred state seal). The border could be reproduced by cross-hatching some lines. It appears to be printed on thin basic paper stock (as noted by the imprint depth of the state seal), and other features. This is the HI COLB of 2002.
Now look at the Obama Colb of 2007:
Clearly a different format (again, use the link to see a larger version). We see a much crisper background, a more brilliant background pattern, possibly paper that is part cloth (since the seal imprint is very faint and can only be detected with image color processing). The border is now a pattern more reminiscent of what might be found on paper money. What we see are lots of new security features.
How anyone would claim these are “apple to apple” documents is beyond me?
So, my claim is these differences are explained because HI did something to their COLB in response to the Real ID act of 2005 before Jun 2007 – when Obama received the COLB he posted and shared with DailyKos. What I found should put a stake in the heart of this mess. As reported in April 2007:
REAL ID is one of the only 9/11 Commission recommendations that relies heavily on the states for implementation. REAL ID might have curtailed 9/11. REAL ID can make a difference to our national security, our economic security and our public safety – but only if fully implemented and adequately funded. To make REAL ID a reality, however, requires more than either the federal government or the states can do on their own. It requires a partnership. It also requires an acknowledgement that securing our nation’s physical and economic integrity is not just a federal responsibility; it is everyone’s responsibility. It requires a further acknowledgement that the ability to verify an individual’s true identity is one of the cornerstones of national and economic security.
…
The Driver License/ID Security Framework that emerged from the AAMVA Special Task Force was detailed and comprehensive; that Framework became the backbone for REAL ID. The outline of the task force responsibilities is worth repeating as it shows how AAMVA – and thus the state DMVs – were well aware and desirous of fixing the multiple vulnerabilities in state ID issuances systems.
…
Importantly, states are already in significant compliance with many aspects of REAL ID’s identity and eligibility verification requirements under REAL ID. All states are checking commercial driver and problem driver databases as required under prior federal law. All but two states are checking SSNs. Twenty states are checking for lawful presence. Vital effects (birth and death) records are in pilot within and between North Dakota, South Dakota and Iowa and five additional states have completed digitization of their vital effect records, including Hawaii, Iowa, Minnesota, Missouri and Montana. Colorado and Minnesota are scheduled to join the pilot in 2007.
Emphasis mine. There you have it folks, that is how 9-11 caused HI to overhaul their vital records system, which led them to upgrade to a new COLB format and impose tighter processes surrounding it. These new processes include restrictions on how this information is distributed to third parties – another factor conspiracy nuts claim is evidence of a cover up. In reality it is evidence of this nation taking measures to protect itself from another 9-11.
To read more on Real ID and state efforts you can find some good information here and here.
OK, this myth is so busted. You want to know why Team Obama is not rushing out to debunk this silliness? My guess is they are laughing so hard they haven’t had time enough to catch their breaths. Besides, why would they stop their opponents from making fools of themselves?
Update: For those hung up on the format version numbers on the lower left hand corner it is clear they do not have to change if the background pattern changed. That versioning control may only apply to the content of the information and layout of the fields. It clearly does not apply to the background. Really folks, let it go.
48 Responses to “How 9-11 Helped Cause The Obama Birth Certificate Silliness”
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How do you explain both documents having the following:
OHSM 1.1 (Rev. 11/01) LASER
I know on most documents, when something changes that changes too. Why didn’t it change on the 2007 document?
The version control number probably has nothing to do with the background and paper.
Besides, what does it matter? Doesn’t prove anything about some mythical FORGERY!
I’m not trying to prove a forgery. I just asked a question. Proving a forgery is beyond my skills. But most control numbers mean something. It would seem that would have changed in order for them to know it was under the new law or the old law.
Sorry Sue.
If you look at the two documents much of the fields and layout is the same – so there would be no need to change the control number.
You’re not allowed to ask questions about the Messiah, Sue.
Everyone has to watch every letter that comes out of their mouth when it comes to talking about the Annointed One.
so there would be no need to change the control number.
When do they usually change control numbers?
Vince,
Do you mean here at AJ’s or elsewhere? Because I doubt seriously questioning Obama on any number of subjects here at AJ’s would cause a problem.
Sue: I’m making a commentary on AJ’s reaction to your question.
That rule is usually managed document to document.
That rule is usually managed document to document.
You lost me. What do you mean, managed document to document?
Sue: I’m making a commentary on AJ’s reaction to your question.
Then you are misunderstanding AJ’s reactions to my questions.
So you’re saying if you asked some random question about a document that had nothing to do with Obama he still would have said “WHAT DOES IT MATTER”
sure if you think so
Vince,
I can assure you that is what he would say. It is **not** questioning Obama that caused that reaction.
Okay, let me try one more time, though I know I’m just shooting myself in the foot.
I’ll state some FACTS first:
a) Senator Obama IS a US Citizen
b) we know that, because he WAS born in Hawaii
c) we also know that, because his mother WAS a US Citizen, at the time of his birth
d) all this nonsense about his mother being too young, etc, at the time of his birth, is just that, Total Nonense
e) Senator Obama is also a US Citizen, we KNOW that, because, he carries a Valid, used, US Passport, issued by the United States Government, which he has used, for at least 10 years or more! Maybe since he first travelled overseas as a youngster with his mother to Indonesia! That’s a FACT!
f) If he has a Valid, US Passport, and we KNOW he does, that means, he or his mother, have PROVED to the US Government, that he is valid, legitimate US Citizen; so that is the end of those fallacies
g) All this means, is that Senator Obama, IS a US Citizen, REGARDLESS of any nonsense with his Birth Certificate
Now, about the darn Birth Certificates
a) the one that supposedly belongs to Senator Obama, above, we have NO idea if that is his REAL one, or a Fake one, or a Forged one, or whatever, because it was relased on the Daily Kos Blog, by a guy who admitted he Forged it, and has said how he forged it.
Bottomline; it doens’t matter whether it is Senator Obama’s REAL BC, or a Forged one by the idiot who has admitted doing it, because Senator Obama IS a US Citizen, and has a Valid US Passport!
Those are the basic Facts that we KNOW to be true.
The idiot who released the forged BC on the Daily Kos, has admitted it; and besides, it doesn’t matter. As stupid as Obama’s campaign has been at times, the ONLY mystery in this entire imbroglio, is why his own stupid website would take the Daily Kos obvious forgery, and claim it was his real one, when it’s obvious it’s not.
Besides, Obama has not had his passport renewed in the past year, so he would have NO reason to get a new BC issued in the past year.
And even IF he had his Passport renewed last year, you don’t need your BC to to renew a Passport, IF you have an old, expired US Passport, and Senator Obama CLEARY had that; so there is NO reason for Senator Obama to have gotten this 2007 forged BC in the first place, none, which is another reason that proves it a bogus forgery, put up by the idiot from the Daily Kos, who has already admitted it.
So, what do we know:
a) Senator Obama is a US Citizen
b) Senator Obama has a US Passport
c) Senator Obama has a Valid US Birth Certificate somewhere
d) We have not seen the real one, as the Daily Kos one is a forgery
e) We have NO NEED to see the real one, unless for some reason, the Obama campaign WANTS to release it for some strange reason
f) the only reason this “controversy” exists to begin with, is because some Obama fan, on the Daily Kos, decided to take the initiative and post “Obama’s BC” on the Blog, to PROVE that Obama was really a US Citizen, when in fact, no such Proof is required, as I have already shown; and because he posted a Forged BC, someone came out and said the Forgery was Fake, which it clearly is, and that started all of it.
g) Because some idiot Faked Senator Obama’s BC on the Daily Kos, it does NOT mean, that Senator Obama was
a) not born in Hawaii
b) is not a US Citizen
c) was born in Kenya
d) does not have a US Passport
Those are ALL False
IF there are OTHER reasons, that the Obama campaign, won’t release Senator Obama’s REAL BC, instead, relying on an obvious forgery for whatever reasons, it could be, according to other people, the following:
a) his mother was REALLY young when he was born, and it’s embarrasing
b) he’s changed his middle name from “Muhammed” to “Hussein”
c) it lists him with no father, or a “black” father, or something similarly stupid, who knows!
Frankly, I don’t think any of those are “embarrassing”, but that is what the idiots who thing this whole thing is “real”, are speculating
They are also speculating, that Senator Obama’s REAL BC, shows he was actually born in Kenya.
I think, they are smoking Crack, if they are waiting for that to happen!
So, that is a factual and truthful assessment of where we are, the rest is just chasing at Windmills!
No one said he’s a Muslum or not a Citizen.. what the hell are you going all nuts about it?
Be careful. Communist law # whatever is “Divide and Conquer”. Obama is probably sitting back and laughing at conservatives fighting with each other about this issue. That’s why he won’t produce his birth certificate. He doesn’t have to.
The question is not if he is a US citizen. The question is he a “natural born citizen”. The state of Hawaii will not give out any information about birth certificates. Nada. No facts, not even if one was requested. They will only tell you HOW they give out copies. Obama probably knew this and knew it could cause some people to go nuts. Forget the whole issue. We will never know. And please let’s not raise this issue over an over again like the libs did the 2000 election.
AJ,
Have you closed registration for new users?
Dale,
because it was relased on the Daily Kos Blog, by a guy who admitted he Forged it,
Can you explain this for me? And maybe provide a link to where the guy admitted he forged the birth certificate?
Sue,
Not sure where it is set now (have to close it when I ban someone).
Cheers, AJStrata
Dale,
Each idiot has a different take on Obama’s right to seek the presidency as it relates to his citizenship. You just named one of many fool’s errands. If folks followed the links they would learn HI cannot discuss any individual’s details – that is part of the Real ID Act. But, the fact they issued a COLB is a clear indication that THEIR investigation shows Obama was born a US Citizen in HI.
The rest is all nonsense.
Organizations have ‘document trees’, describing the process, procedures and products. Each document in a tree may be governed by a standard and a version, with rules dictating what the standard covers (e.g., content, but not background and border) and what initiates changes to a new revision. So, in the end, the rules on version numbers and triggers boils down to be unique to each document.
Sue,
the person Dale keeps referring to as having “admitted” the forgery and how he did it….was “surmised” to have done so by the site that initially started all this through their own analysis (which was flawed on some levels as has been pointed out).
The person in question has never admitted anything related to forging Obama’s BC—Dale is misleading on this point, or simply did not comprehend what the Israelinsider was saying. A “font expert” posted a mostly blank Hawaii BC from his photobucket account to a Kos blog and then someone added a name to it (ie…that’s the “known” forgery they are talking about). The blank had no seal or date stamp, etc., and was presented under the heading…”why don’t you make one up for J. McCain too”. (attached mostly blank Hawaii BC that has someone else’s name, but the same Island as birthplace)
Israelinsider surmised from that exchange (and posting) that this person was indeed the forgerer of Obama’s document…based on timeline, and the fact that they had a blank they could have used to do such a thing—since they posted it, and that this person, and the other, who posted the same document with a fake name typed in, were one in the same. Mind you, none of this had anything to do with the actual Obama BC being manipulated, nor did anyone claim to have done so…it was all pure speculation on their part.
If that’s not enough…then how about taking their OWN words for it:
[quote]“None of this is not to imply that McKinnon himself forged the Obama document, with all the fields filled in with information about the presidential candidate but lacking the visible stamp and signature that alone would make it an authentic document. Nor is their proof positive about how the almost-blank “Oahu 7:24pm” document is related to the one endorsed by the Obama campaign that features those exact details. “[/quote]
And if that’s not enough…then lets add this on for good measure just to squash it in the ground completely.
[Quote]“In the course of my subsequent email exchange with McKinnon — more on that in the next article — he at last agreed to release the following statement: “I believe there is overwhelming evidence that Senator Obama is a natural born US Citizen, and I have no evidence to contradict that belief.” He did not relate to the veracity of the Obama birth certificate images.”[/Quote]
So, Israelinsider DID in fact ask McKinnon directly (the person of interest here) who did NOT admit to anything related to any knowledge of a forgery or the veracity of Obama’s BC (and in fact says there is nothing that leads him to believe his is not a US citizen).
Based on the fact that McKinnon did not implicate himself….Israelinsider believes he could be guilty of something. That should tell you all you need to know about this.
Here’s the site…you can read it for yourself
http://web.israelinsider.com/Articles/Politics/12956.htm
DC,
To back you up I have had an email from Opendna (Jay Mckinnon) who has thanked me for being independent on this matter and noted I was correct in my assumptions. Since he has denied ever doing anything but a joke mock-up Dale is acting more like Larry Johnson than anyone else.
And yes Dale, I know how insulting that is – but you and the No Quarter nuts are on the same side of this one.
AJStrata
DC; I confess, that is a more accurate explanation, thank you.
# VinceP1974on 12 Jul 2008 at 5:58 pm
No one said he’s a Muslum or not a Citizen.. what the hell are you going all nuts about it?
Vince, c’mon, I’m not saying AJ said that, but if you haven’t been hearing it or seeing elsewhere, then you’re not paying attention.
Heck, I know he’s a US Citizen msyelf, but I’m also firmly convinced he is at least a closet Muslim who practices “Taqiyah”, but he is a US Citizen with a legitimate BC, somewhere, and he does meet the qualifications to become President of the United States.
My only problem is; Do we WANT him to be?
# Sueon 12 Jul 2008 at 10:29 pm
Dale,
because it was relased on the Daily Kos Blog, by a guy who admitted he Forged it,
Can you explain this for me? And maybe provide a link to where the guy admitted he forged the birth certificate?
Sue, DC above summed up it accurately; follow his link, and make your own conclusion.
And yes Dale, I know how insulting that is – but you and the No Quarter nuts are on the same side of this one.
AJStrata
AJ; wow, now that is interesting, how can you actually say that?
I have made it CLEAR, a dozen times, that Obama is a US Citizen, he’s eligible to be President, that he has a valid BC, somewhere, and that this is all just nonsense!
Haven’t i said that every time I’ve had this discussion with you?
I’ve also defened him, and said he had a Valid US Passport, and that is all the proof he, and I need, that he is a Valid, US Citizen.
The ONLY thing that I’ve said is:
a) its obvious that so-called “BC” on Daily Kos, is NOT Obama’s REAL BC
b) I just find that curious that is own website would take the Daily Kos one, and post it; instead of just ignorning the whole thing, or posting the real one
That’s all I’ve ever said, and all I ever will say.
I’ve said, again, from the very beginning, that this is a non-issue, that Obama is a citizen, eligible to be US President, and the whole BC is a non-factor/non-argument, about a non-BC.
That’s it!
And I still can’t say it enough, without you mischaractizing what I say!
And now you accuse me of being in with the Larry Johnson crowd, which is hillarious since you joined them in touting the non-existant Michelle Obama “Whitey” tape, and I told about ten times: “AJ, be careful, it doesn’t exist, and the only proof you need of that, is the fact that Larry Johnson said it..”.
And guess what, I was right about that.
And, I’m right about the BC issue as well; that was NOT Obama’s “real” BC on the Daily Kos, regardless of the source; we haven’t seen his “real” one, and we don’t need to see it.
He is a US Citizen, born in Hawaii, of a US Citizen mother.
End of issue.
Now how does that make me like the Larry Johnson/No Quarter Crowd?
If you go back and read EVERY post I’ve made on your Blog about this issue, I’ve said the EXACT same thing, over and over and over, again.
Nice try AJ, but it won’t work. I am not like the No Quarter/Larry Johnson crowd, neither on this issue, nor the “Whitey” tape issue, nor any other issue.
And you know it’s true, you just threw that out their to try and get me back for pointing out the truth here, on both issues.
That’s okay, I understand; it doesn’t bother me anymore.
I was correct about the “Whitey” tape, I’m correct about the BC thing; the BC floating around the internet, from the Daily Kos in, is a Forgery, but that has NOTHING to do with Obama’s REAL BC, we haven’t seen it, because he hasn’t released it; but so what; he doesn’t need to; he was born in the US, to a US Citizen, and that issue is over!
Actually AJ; I know you were trying to make me mad with that last comment, but it’s so ludicrous, in light of EVERYTHING I’ve written on this topic, that you actually caused the opposite to happen; I’m sitting here typing, laughing my butt off….
Pretty funny AJ; nice try though….
Well I would like to know based on your conclusions why I have seen a certificate that was released just recently that looks like the “background” in the Decosta certificate and nothing like the “background” in the Obama one, since you are so convinced it is simply the updated security that makes Obama’s look different. Apparently in 2008 they switched back to the old security after changing it in 2007? Makes no sense.
And why is the Obama camp taking out ads on Google lying to the American people telling them they can see the “original” birth certificate when they know this is a scan of a laser printed document?
And why doesn’t the Obama camp just show the paper instead of a picture to reporters like McCain has done because as your now apparent “friend” opendna has said “It should be self-evident that a JPEG of a scanned official document cannot be valid”?
Or instead of answering legitimate questions will you simply call me an idiot like you have some of the others here? The only thing “busted” it appears is your reputation for being fair-minded. For it appears you can’t present your side of the argument and answer legitimate questions without stooping to name-calling.
Dale,
listen…I’m not trying to bust your chops or anything….but this is what you’ve been pushing as a central theme of “our” misunderstanding of why you keep this burning:
[Quote from Dale: ] “Now, about the darn Birth Certificates
a) the one that supposedly belongs to Senator Obama, above, we have NO idea if that is his REAL one, or a Fake one, or a Forged one, or whatever, because it was relased on the Daily Kos Blog, by a guy who admitted he Forged it, and has said how he forged it.”
“The idiot who released the forged BC on the Daily Kos, has admitted it” [end quote]
You have “clearly” said…that you believe that the issue had nothing to do with Obama being a citizen (or not) …but with “why” this guy would knowingly post a false BC on Kos (sic: and admit it)
Then, you agree with my post above as being an accurate description that says that this person did NOT admit forging Obama’s BC, nor did he acknowledge anything about “how it was done”.
So, I’m a little confused here. Would you care to explain?
Bomza,
Got a link?
Okay DC, I misunderstood then, the central thesis of your argument; I was up late, and since either way, this is just a bunch of horse-hockey; I mean I agree and always have that Obama is a US Citizen and was born to a US Citizen, and thus there is NO issue that I can discern with his BC, other than his campaign has acted “weird” about it; regardless; I was pretty sure that the guy from the Daily Kos has “admitted” he faked it, when confronted by the Israeli Insider.
But now, if I’m correct in understanding you and AJ; you’re both saying that the Daily Kos guy has now said, he did NOT “forge” the BC?
That’s contrary to what I had read before; I’ll check it out a bit, and see if I can rectify that; though I’m don’t do any imagery analysis, because a) I don’t care, and b) because I don’t have any expertise in that arena, unlike AJ.
I still say though, that Obama is a US Citizen, there is no issue about that, and he has a valid US Passport.
My only contention, was that what was posted at the Daily Kos, was NOT his “real” BC.
But, we shall see; let me see if I can track down the discrepancy…
I can save you the trouble Dale.
The Daily Kos has never said that anyone forged Obama’s BC.
Nor has anyone ever confessed such a thing. Nor is there any evidence that the posted BC image is forged.
There is only speculation and hyperbole that it could have been done, and the accusation of guilt that was based on other images and the fact that the person involved did not admit it when asked.
There is nothing further to be had from this…other than embarrassment.
The central thesis of my argument was…that despite the claims otherwise, there is nothing to prove Obama’s BC was forged…nor has there been a confession by the forger. It wasn’t an “argument”. It was a direct rebuttal to claims made by others (ie..you).
DC:
The Daily Kos has never said that anyone forged Obama’s BC.
Actually, I don’t think I ever said the Daily Kos said that; the Israeli Insider, which took the lead on this, is the one that said they ferretted the comments out by the original forger, where he basically admitted prior to, and afterwards, that he was faking the BC. It wasn’t the Daily Kos itself, it was the person who supposedly did it.
The central thesis of my argument was…that despite the claims otherwise, there is nothing to prove Obama’s BC was forged…
Did you read all 4 parts of the Israeli Insider, who I think was the one that started all this?
After reading those articles, do you still think that is the case?
It was a direct rebuttal to claims made by others (ie..you).
Actually, I thought I was making clear, many times, they were not “my” claims.
I’m not a computer expert, I’m not a forensic expert, I’m not a document expert, I’m not a technical expert, I’m not an imagery expert, I’m not an expert in Photoshop or forged BC or anything type of documents; and I have never said that.
The only thing I ever claimed was that I was a trained “analyst”, which I am, but I didn’t specify in what.
My only point being, I was trying to state, clearly, that they were not “my” claims: the whole time, and in every post I made on this subject, I was trying to get across the point that the Israeli Insider spent considerable time on this, and it was THEIR research/claims that directly contravened AJ’s analysis, not mine.
And, my original point still stands; NO one can PROVE that what was posted on the Daily Kos, is in fact, Obama’s “original” realworld, live, BC.
It’s possible to prove it is a forgery, IF it is a forgery; but unless Senator Obama comes out and says, definitively; “Yes, that’s mine!”
No one can prove it IS his, for real.
The reverse is true, not the the former.
Anyway, let me check that Israeli Insider article, because what I read there, I thought, contravenes what you say…
Dale,
The point is I debunked everything Isreali Insider claimed. And the person who you said admitted to making a forgery never did, that was a lie promulgated by Israeli Insider.
And while no one can prove from a scanned image it is authentic (you need a scan of the back) all evidence points to it being authentic.
So far no one has provided anything that could withstand a modicum of review there is any evidence of tampering. None!
BTW – no one ever claimed what was posted on Kos was his 1961 BC. All we have said is it looks to be a 2007 certificate issued by HI confirming his claim he was born in HI.
Sorry, your just barking up a dead tree here my friend.
DC: well, this article in the Israeli Insider says its fairly clear, that Jay McKinnon/opendna has all but admitted forging the original document posted on the Daily Kos; as I have stated many times, and yet been harrassed and insulted and told I didn’ t know what I was talking.
This is also the same individual, whom AJ said emailed him, and who purportedly told AJ he did NOT “forge” the document.
http://web.israelinsider.com/Articles/Politics/12959.htm
Read the article, and draw your own conclusions, but I’ve now proven that I indeed was correct in all my prior statements, EXCEPT when I mistakenly agreed with you earlier; because I was in a rush, and was tired, and was up late, and I just wanted to get the heck past it.
So, again, this is not “my” expertise, I leave that to others, my intent was only to relay what I had read in these articles, and they have done such a thorough job, butressed by the images and the exact quotes from the Daily Kos itself, as well as the interview with Jay McKinnon himself, that I find it hard to believe that they are making the whole thing up?
That was a quick reply AJ!
Okay, so what you are saying then, is that despite all the information in this exact article:
http://web.israelinsider.com/Articles/Politics/12959.htm
Despite the interview with Jay McKinnon/opendna contained therein, that that is in fact, all a lie?
Okay then, if that’s what you are saying, and you KNOW that, then you know more than me, and the discussion is over; you win; I only know what I read in those articles.
Okay, end of story I guess…
Yes Dale, that is what I am saying. Thanks!
Okay, I think that pretty much ends this discussion then.
Dale,
I included that in my prior post. It wasn’t Israeliinsider that said that this person had confirmed/admitted to forging the document (they were careful to NOT do that, despite making it seem as if they were). It was you in your post above that makes that claim, then insists that israelinsider said it. It doesn’t.
No one, I repeat, no one has ever admitted to them that they were the forger of Obama’s BC as you have previously claimed. You were never right on that. Just a few paragraphs after Israeli insider (part 4) says that their analysis, by default, proves that this particular person “defacto” forged the document and Kos tried to cover it…(you forgot to mention that part), they add this (also posted above in response to Sue, that you agreed was accurate)
Here’s the quote again direct from their website (end of Part 4)
[quote]“None of this is not to imply that McKinnon himself forged the Obama document, with all the fields filled in with information about the presidential candidate but lacking the visible stamp and signature that alone would make it an authentic document. Nor is their proof positive about how the almost-blank “Oahu 7:24pm” document is related to the one endorsed by the Obama campaign that features those exact details. “[/quote]
And if that’s not enough…then lets add this on for good measure just to squash it in the ground completely.
[Quote]“In the course of my subsequent email exchange with McKinnon — more on that in the next article — he at last agreed to release the following statement: “I believe there is overwhelming evidence that Senator Obama is a natural born US Citizen, and I have no evidence to contradict that belief.” He did not relate to the veracity of the Obama birth certificate images.”[/Quote]
Here’s what you said (quoted from your post up in this thread)
[quote from Dale]….a) the one that supposedly belongs to Senator Obama, above, we have NO idea if that is his REAL one, or a Fake one, or a Forged one, or whatever, because it was relased on the Daily Kos Blog, by a guy who admitted he Forged it, and has said how he forged it.[/quote]
And here, later in the same post above:
…”d) We have not seen the real one (BC), as the Daily Kos one is a forgery”
Again, its not a known forgery and it never was. The arguments that it is a forgery are all based on speculation using attention grabbing for the uninitiated, but technically deficient none-the-less, techniques to make such conjecture. Then to pile on top of that, extrapolate some conspiracy forgery/coverup based on PURE conjecture based on yet “other” documents. Then on top of that, suggest that their own conjecture then proves (by defacto) that someone else admitted something they didn’t.
The methods and analysis used on israelinsider are no different than the troofers use.
DC,
Dale acquiesced already!
Sorry, didn’t see it before I posted it.
[...] is the man is comparing to different version of COLB and claiming the differences in the formats (as I noted here were due to the Real ID Act). He is looking at a 2002 COLB from a Ms Decosta and the 2007 COLB from [...]
[...] of Health has been performing a lot of upgrades to their vital records systems, as I claimed a few posts back. Just check out the images of all these COLBS from [...]
[...] a fake as more and more people compared the 2002 COLB to the newer 2007 COLB – all of which proved nothing more than we already knew, Hawaii was updating their vital records and COLBS in response to 9-11 and the Real ID Act of 2005, [...]
AJ, you rerally need to see an optometrist ormaybe q
[...] that the reason there were different backgrounds was Hawaii was upgrading the vital records systems in accordance to Real ID and 9-11. Techdud had not, up until I helped set him on the right path, ever considered this reality. But he [...]
After having read all these comments and seen several videos of images I must conclude that there is something missing here.
1. Our next president needs to be a “natural born citizen” as is so stated in Article II of our constitution.
2. The framers of the U.S. constitution included that verbage in the constitution in order to avoid divided loyalties.
3. When Barack Obama Jr. was born on Aug. 4,1961, in Honolulu, Kenya was a British colony, still part of the United Kingdom’s dwindling empire. As a Kenyan native, Barack Obama Sr. was a British subject whose citizenship status was governed by The British Nationality Act of 1948. That same act governed the status of Obama Sr.’s children.
4. Since Sen. Obama has neither renounced his U.S. citizenship nor sworn an oath of allegiance to Kenya, his Kenyan citizenship automatically expired on Aug. 4,1982.
You see, the problem is not his birth certificate or COLB, wether he was born in Hawaii or not. The problem is his status as either a U.S. Citizen or a “natural born citizen,” if Obama Sr. by virtue of his own Kenyan citizenship afforded Obama Jr. a “dual” citizenship, then IN FACT the latter would not be eligible to hold the office of POTUS.
We really need to think about that, is the constitution important enough to uphold or should we simply follow as blind sheep without truly investigating this matter thoroughly? I for one do not view this matter as “silly” and apparently neither does the Supreme Court, even know, as I write this, there are currently trhee cases up for review within the SC. Remember, “No person except a natural born Citizen, or a Citizen of the United States, at the time of the Adoption of this Constitution, shall be eligible to the Office of President; neither shall any Person be eligible to that Office who shall not have attained to the Age of thirty-five Years, and been fourteen Years a Resident within the United States”.