Jul 20 2008
The End Of The COLB Cult – Myth Busted Again
Update: Reader Ray from Australia noted this article wherein an official of the state of HI looked at the BHO COLB and said it looked to be real. Â
When the birth certificate arrived from the Obama campaign it confirmed his name as the other documents already showed it. Still, we took an extra step: We e-mailed it to the Hawaii Department of Health, which maintains such records, to ask if it was real.
“It’s a valid Hawaii state birth certificate,” spokeswoman Janice Okubo told us.
As shown below, how could anyone miss the unique style of the border? There’s more – there may now exist another COLB with the same border:
We circled back to the Department of Health, had a newsroom colleague bring in her own Hawaii birth certificate to see if it looks the same (it’s identical).Â
As I said below, just one more COLB formatted like Obama’s and Pam’s expert has egg on his face. Update: I have a question for Techdude and others who have multiple COLBs in their position: Did you ever get one that looks like the BHO COLB with its style of borders?  And if so, why didn’t you publish that information?  You may not, but these witnesses indicate there were two formats in circulation.  Kind of hard to believe you folks never saw one, but it is possible. – end update
Why are there two formats? Either one was a prototype discontinued or HI is just running through the last of their old stock. But the point still stands – to accuse someone of a crime you have to more the claim it is possible. If anyone has a COLB that has the same border pattern as below I would be interested in hearing about it [ajstrata@strata-sphere.com]
Finally, Hat Tip to Allahpundit at Hot Air for the link. Â Hope your sin of support doesn’t cause too many headaches from the cultists.
Update: Well, if someone wants to know why this myth-mess is good for Obama, here’s an example – end update
Well, it seems we finally have the final report, representing the final act of the COLB Cult today. Techdude has produced something that impresses the non-technical groupies of the movement. But does it hold up to the argument there is evidence, beyond a reasonable doubt (my standard for when I confront smears)? No, not really.
One thing to recall is the track record of failed claims from various cultists since this began. Each claim debunked, followed by wilder claims, which were debunked. Here is a recap of the trend:
(1) The image on Kos was a forgery because it was not a BC but a COLB (took people a while to realize HI had moved to issuing COLBs instead of BCs).
(2) The image was a fake because there was no stamped seal – later discovered existing in the image.
(3) The image was a fake because there was not signature seen on the back – later discovered in the image.
(4) The image was a fake because there was no date stamp for when it was issued – which was detected and evident to the casual viewer.
(5) The image was fake because it was photoshopped – later shown to be a cropping of the excess paper area and blacking out of the ID number
(6) The image was fake because it was different from the BHO version – later discovered to be the fact BHO saved the image to a lower resolution, smaller web friendly version.
(7) The image is a fake because it was made from a forgery started by Opendna – that lame claim lived for weeks, but in the end was proven impossible.
(8) The image was a fake because the borders did not match a 2002 COLB – one of my favorites because of this line from the aforementioned Techdude:
But upon manually stretching them to match edge to edge I caught a glimpse of what I and apparently everyone else had simply not noticed. The security borders do not match. Literally. They are not even close to identical.
Here’s the image of the two borders – how could anyone not see that? Subtle – eh? Techdude later admitted THIS claim was wrong – there had been updates between the 2002 and 2007 COLB formats. He also debunked the Opendna claims.
(8) The image was claimed to be a fake as more and more people compared the 2002 COLB to the newer 2007 COLB – all of which proved nothing more than we already knew, Hawaii was updating their vital records and COLBS in response to 9-11 and the Real ID Act of 2005, as can be seen in the variety of COLBs found for the period
(9) The image was a fake because the document format version control number never changed while the format did – which we now know is because the format control number covers the data fields and contents, not the look and feel.
(10) The image is a fake because a date field has a format anomaly in it – but then the exact same anomaly was found in other COLBS from the same time frame.
(11) Anti-aliasing haze around the text was a sign of forgery – when it is actually only a sign of text being printed.
Today Techdude has his report out, so let’s see if he has a smoking gun or wrecked professional credibility.
Sadly, Techdude doesn’t provide an analysis, he produces cherry picked data from one side only. A real analysis compares the evidence that supports the opposite conclusion. From the list above we see tons of reverse examples. Assumptions of what real image would contain, which later proved to exist. All those debunked claims are also evidence that the COLB image is real. It from the totality of the evidence that we decide which side is MORE COMPELLING. A real technical analysis would address all the evidence and discuss why some crazy marginal border measurements outweigh things like the impressed seal (hard to fake), a signature area, etc. All things COMMON to valid COLBs and images of them, but hard to fake out using graphics programs.
And much of what Techdude discovered PROVES points I made way back – which supports the claim the image of the BHO COLB is a scan of a legit COLB. For example, I predicted that as part of the upgrades to the COLB that came on line in 2006, there was a change in the paper which was probably a more secure paper-cloth hybrid. This new paper was thicker and made the seal impression harder to detect from a front scan. Techdude confirmed this again today:
The embossed seals and ink stamps in all of the pre-2006 images are clearly visible in the scans however none of the post-2006 seals or ink stamps are visible without extensive manipulation to the digital images. Even when scanning the physical post-2006 certificate in my possession using multiple resolutions and using multiple scanners I was also unable to produce an image which would allow the seal to show though the image. The ink stamps on the rear side were also not visible in the front side scans without digital modifications to the scanned images. My scans of the physical certificate also produced the same results using multiple resolutions and using multiple scanners.
This destroys many forgery claims by Polarik and others who compared the 2002 COLB and BHO 2007 COLBs based on these features. And in fact, the similarity in the results by Techdude on taking modern COLBs and seeing the same telltales in his scans as shown in the Kos image means he proved the Kos image is legit. When you use real world COLBs and perform the same scanning process using a range of variables and you create the same result this is confirmation.
It should have been noted as such in any professional ‘report’. Also, if you want review of your work you need to provide the data. Figure 3 is a low quality image of the ‘smoking gun’. When I tried to down load it and blow it up it was impossible to see. Sorry, but peer reviewing requires the actual data. I will forego any detailed comments until Techdude and Pam decide to provide all the data.
But let’s step back again to the blatantly obvious fact the BHO COLB has unique security borders – not even close to the others. Techdude goes into minute measurements to prove the obvious – the borders are not the same. Why? We know they are not. Not the same color, not the same pattern, not the same dimensions. What Techdude has not proven is that the 2007 BHO COLB is the one and only HI COLB with that pattern! Techdude has two other COLBS (from 2006 and 2008) with telltales IDENTICAL to the BHO COLB. These include version numbers, data fields and contents, border lettering, seal imprints etc. Commonalities that cannot be ignored.
Finally Techdude repeats his horrible mistake from day one – he goes back to comparing apples to oranges. Remember, Techdude has some original COLBs, which he or someone else scanned. They were not scanned by the same person who scanned the BHO COLB. They were not scanned on the same machines using the same settings. Why is this important?
Because the tools Techdude wanted to use to do image analysis are used to detect image manipulation WITHIN an image. These tools and methods look at inconsistencies with in an image to show where the image was manipulated. an image should have consistent sharpness, depth, resolution, etc if it has not been tampered with. Areas where there is known tampering would show up easily (for example where the ID number was blocked out). A real expert in this field did the analysis on the BHO image and concluded they were reasonably untouched (minus the known manipulations).
What did Techdud do? To my shock he took three different images and tried to compare across them!
The 2007, 2008, and the two KOS images were then analyzed by creating a heat map showing where each pixel changes as jpeg quality decreases from 100 to 0. A change was considered relevant once the sum of the changes to the red, green, and blue values exceeded 10%. The heat map created from the 2007 and 2008 images showed the fonts, seal image, and security border are all identical consistent values. To eliminate any subjective presumptions and to increase the number of comparative tests the same analysis was then conducted on the 2006 and prior certificate images which all found the fonts, seal images, and security borders to also be saved with identical consistent values. The same analysis on the KOS images showed the security border having a substantially different RGB quality value than the fonts and the seal image.
It is a rookie mistake with these kinds of tools, to try and make assumptions across uniquely created images of different formatted documents. There is no conclusion that can be drawn when doing this except the documents are different and the process of image capture was not the same. It doesn’t prove anything beyond that (and Techdude knows this). Here are the images:
Original here. Â Clearly there is are differences, but I want to note the blacking out of date fields to show what a ‘forgery’ we show. You can see in all three where the modifications were done – they are impossible to miss. They have sharper edges, they have different colors. Â While all three show different RGB results, all of them are the same thing – efforts to black out personal data. You need to look at changes in the context of the image itself, not across images. Â For example, the fact COLB 2 has bright borders on the black outs and COLB 1 doesn’t is not a sign one of them is forged.Â
The BHO COLB is unique to the set of COLBs so far seen. But we can end this mess in a heartbeat. If anyone has a HI COLB that is of the format and structure of the BHO COLB please share it with us. If you got a COLB around Jun 2007 my guess is you might have the variant we saw with the OBH COLB, which seemed to be around for a while as an experiment or prototype version. Just a scan of of the border is needed – nothing more.
Techdude has given his groupies more false positives to run around and play their games with. Â He also showed, unintentionally, why the BHO COLB image could be real. Â He confirmed the paper upgrade and showed empirically that all the new COLBs, post 2006, shared the same traits regarding the impression of the seal.
Now what are the odds someone who screwed up the borders so badly also caught the paper quality detail? Basically they are – zero! Â No one who did enough investigating to make sure the seal imprint was light due to new, thicker paper would miss the borders. Â What are the odds a person who screwed up the borders so badly was able to know to put the date field anomaly in? Â Zero as well. Thanks Techdude, but as usual you proved my point. Â When you claim such an obvious and glaring disconnect is the work of a forger who was able to get the other mountain of hidden details right – you have debunked yourself.Â
Myth busted – again.
Can you prove your not a child molester? See the why asking to prove a negative is in total opposition to what America stands for?
This is not France. Americans (even dumb ones with no business being in power) are innocent until proven guilty.
AJ,
Since you are intent upon using legal standards, I will play your game. In the United States a person is presumed innocent until proven guilty. That does not mean that he is actually innocent, only that the court will maintain a presumption that he is until the prosecution proves otherwise. Now, if the prosecution fails to carry its burden – that the defendant is guilty – beyond a reasonable doubt, what happens? Has that person been proven innocent? No. He has been acquitted, which means that his presumption of innocence remains.
Similarly, Obama’s COLB should enjoy the presumption of validity until proven to be a forgery. Like you, I don’t believe that those who’ve thus far tried have in fact carried that burden. So now, where does the situation stand? Obama’s COLB continues to enjoy the presumption of validity.
However, that is not what you have done. You have essentially said that Obama’s COLB has been proven authentic, hence the continually employed “myth busted” language. I say that you are unjustified in proclaiming the matter settled, and you turn around and claim that I’m demanding that Obama prove its authenticity. You’ve obviously misconstrued the distinction.
Now, you revile those who are so fixated on discrediting the COLB that they will ignore any contrary evidence. And I am essentially asking you to look in the mirror. I think the fact that Techdude has produced (allegedly) three COLBs from 2006 to 2008, each with the same border pattern, is quite significant, considering the fact that Obama’s 2007 COLB border pattern does not match. Does that prove the COLB is a forgery? No, at least not beyond a reasonable doubt. Your point that the alleged fabricators would emulate hard-to-mimic details such as the embossed seal while missing the border pattern is very well taken. But the border discrepancy should very legitimately raise some eyebrows. And your steadfast refusal to even entertain the possibility is what calls your credibility into question.
drake,
Rule of law is not a game. Whether an citizen has to prove his innocence or the government his guilt is not a joke. Sorry, but you dismiss what separates America from the rest of the world with the cavalier attitude of a cultist who needs to believe, because he can’t defeat Obama on the merits of sound arguments.
You really don’t think you are impressing me do you? I have tough standards for being impressed.
Techdude has not just produced three COLBs that differ from the 2007 BHO, but by the logic of his first post I noted here those COLBs differ from the 2002 Decosta COLB and would be, by HIS logic, fakes.
Techdude knows where I am coming from and he knows, deep down, he has done nothing more than the myth has not been proven impossible. But something plausible does not mean it is possible or likely, let alone fact. His conclusions have gone from fact, to plausible. He knows where he is headed.
Drake,
Look back at my earlier posts and my comments on them – I was open to TD showing something real – finding a smoking gun. I WAS open to the idea this was all a forgery. But I warned him, fall short and that was the end of his credibility.
Not with me alone. He has a large audience watching and he fell way short of PROVING a forgery. That is his claim, and I debunked it easily.
Game over, checkmate.
I can’t believe the amount of internet bandwidth this non-issue has consumed. Imagine for a moment that someone proves it is a fake … what does that actually mean?
Nothing. Not a darned thing. They do change anything one iota. Folks, there are some rather talented and tenacious people here, I wish they would latch onto something that actually matters.
It all depends on what is is. O’Bama is certainly slippery: he redefines public to mean private so he will say he’s taking REAL public financing; meaning, of course, private financing.
So here he wants to show that he is a natural-born US citizen and so eligible to be President. But you are all missing the boat. Of course the document is real! (I only doubt that he found it tucked away in a book.) Certainly everyone who claims some form of forgery is smelling smoke but just can’t find the fire.
My guess has always been that the doc is real but is a deliberate distraction from his original Birth Certificate. And the more that people debate the COLB’s validity, the more the investigators look like fools and the less likely it is that anyone will uncover the truth. And I suspect the truth is that O’Bama’s real BC has some more or less unimportant information on it that he wants to keep concealed.
Perhaps his original BC states that
1- his birth religion is Muslim, which plays into American’s xenophobic fears (and also makes him an apostate in the eyes of other muslims around this world that he is so globe-trotting at the moment), or
2- he is illegitimate, which he may fear will prejudice him among middle conservatives, or
3- perhaps it states his race is white which might make him ‘not black enough’ to be elected as ‘the first black President’, or
4- his nationality is Kenyan (or British East Africa Protectorate) which might make him appear to be British intead of ‘natural-born’ American.
The point is that the COLB, however authentic and legal it may be, is not a birth certificate; and there is probably a reason for O’Bama not showing the original BC.
Here’s more of AJ’s non-existant “analysis” on the Michelle “Whitey” Obama tape, that AJ now says, he never said, existed at all! But, since AJ now says, he never said the “Whitey” did exist, I’m just making this up out of whole cloth, so please ignore what I’m linking to here, on AJ’s own Blog; it doesn’t exit, because…ah…AJ said it doesn’t:
“The tape may exist and Obama knows it. If Michelle is on tape and it is available to the GOP and Obama camp (thus there is no need to pay $1 million for a copy) then the question boils down to how to make this hurt the GOP as much as the Democrats.”
http://strata-sphere.com/blog/index.php/archives/5446
“I should note that I don’t think a video as damning as Johnson’s whisper campaign exists. If there is a video it is not as strong as hinted. Michelle could be simply recalling what she heard someone else saying as she grew up, or something.”
http://strata-sphere.com/blog/index.php/archives/5460
“The video can’t be all that damning, because the Super Delegates are still heading to Obama and the GOP is not going near the tape. So what’s happening now?”
http://strata-sphere.com/blog/index.php/archives/5490
“I am against Barack Obama, but this tape needs to come out and Michelle deserves an opportunity to attempt to put it into context.”
http://strata-sphere.com/blog/index.php/archives/5492
“These two versions are too close to be independent guesses. These two bloggers either talked to the same person, or persons who had seen the same tape. Booman’s excuse always seemed to me like grasping out of desperation. So maybe there is a tape.”
http://strata-sphere.com/blog/index.php/archives/5495
“And Larry Johnson has confirmed my speculation from yesterday that the transcripts that hit the leftward blogs yesterday do reflect the actual content of the video – which I assume Johnson confirmed with those sources he talked to, who talked to other sources, who saw the video. ”
“This revelation tells me (again) that the media has the tape and are working with someone to time its release, still expected for tomorrow sometime. ”
“As I suspected this has been shopped around to the media with some sitting on it for some reason.”
http://strata-sphere.com/blog/index.php/archives/5496
“My feeling all along has been the much hyped video tape of Michelle Obama with Mrs. Farrakhan is too weak to stand on its own, or it would be out by now (interesting how Larry Johnson somehow forgot to mention the Farrakhan connection to Barrack Obama was actually through the wives Obama and Farrakhan). ”
http://strata-sphere.com/blog/index.php/archives/5501
“The reason the video is not out yet is twofold: (a) because it is weak it required weeks of build up and establishing preconceptions by one Larry Johnson – avid Clinton support, and (b) because the risk of blow back against Clinton and the potential to cripple the Democrat Party for years to come made this a last ditch act. ”
http://strata-sphere.com/blog/index.php/archives/5501
“The video will come out sooner or later. But as Kim Priestap at Wizbang notes, the DNC and Dems leaders are forcing Super Delegates to choose their candidates by Friday – thus trying to force Clinton out of the race. That may not be enough time for the video to do its damage.”
“Clinton’s camp seems to have gotten cold feet on the Michelle Obama video. I don’t blame them, most of us (even those who oppose Obama as he stands now) want to give Michelle and Barrack there moment in the Sun as they enjoy the fact they made history. The video is not coming out any time soon, it would destroy the democrat party – permanently – if Obama was taken down by the tape this week.”
http://strata-sphere.com/blog/index.php/archives/5506
Michelle Obama Tape Probably Exists – Why Is The News Media Withholding it?
http://strata-sphere.com/blog/index.php/archives/5508
“If there is a copy of this tape, my guess is it is in the hands of the Illinois or Chicago based news media. They are Obama’s home town media and most culpable in letting the needed vetting of Obama happen. ”
http://strata-sphere.com/blog/index.php/archives/5539
Okay, I got tired of cutting and pasting; bottomline, AJ DEFNITIVELY many times, said the “Whitey” tape existed.
His “analysis” started out with his taking up a Larry C. Johnson Rumor, “analyzing” it, extrapolating from that, speculating upon the extrapolation, then confirming the speculation, then definitively stating the ‘confirmation” as fact!
When it became obvious, that the tape didn’t exit, then, it suddenly back to “if” a tape exists, and a “possible” tape, and “probably doesn’t exist”, and then blaming the whole thing on everyone else!
SIXTEEN different threads/posts, of a “Whitey” tape that doesn’t exist, based upon a single rumor perpetrated by a Leftwing Pro-Hillary Nutbag!
And EVERY single time, when AJ would post his “analysis”, I would post a comment saying the Exact…Same….Thing: “AJ, don’t do this, don’t say it exists, you’re basing your analysis upon a sole source, and that is Larry C. Johnson”.
So notice the analytical style at work here, take a position, “prove” it based upon “analysis”, but just leave a tad of wiggle room in there, just in case; then later on, when proven wrong, just flat out deny you ever said it, and instead, deny you said it all along.
See a pattern here, anyone?
You’ve done a masterful job here AJ; you’ve “proven” the COLB is NOT a “forgery”, you’ve progressed three quarters of the way thru your typical analytical pattern, and with just a key word here or there, you’ve left yourself a tad of wiggle room.
When the Daily Kos posted Obama COLB is proven to be an actual Forgery, you will immediately put up a post, claiming the whole time that you knew it was a fake, and then you pontificate about how the whole thing is the fault of the “rightwing nuts” and the “leftwing moonbats”.
Masterful AJ, masterful! I applaude you!
.
Rule of law is not a game. Whether an citizen has to prove his innocence or the government his guilt is not a joke. Sorry, but you dismiss what separates America from the rest of the world …
I don’t believe I ever said it was a game or acted like it was a game (in fact, as one who has a law degree, I think I’ve explained the way that legal presumptions operate much more accurately than you have). I was simply trying to point out the distinction between failure to prove that one is guilty and affirmatively proving that one is innocent. It’s an important distinction: Obama’s COLB has not been proven a forgery, but neither has it been proven authentic. Thus, it remains presumed authentic.
… with the cavalier attitude of a cultist who needs to believe, because he can’t defeat Obama on the merits of sound arguments.
First of all, my attitude was never cavalier. I have carefully attempted to chronicle my arguments in a respectful way. Second, you don’t know a damn thing about me. What my views are or what my motivations are. From the very beginning, I have been warning those who cry “forgery! forgery!” to be careful – that they should instead be trying to prove that it is not a forgery, in accordance with the scientific method, and only after they have failed could they begin to assume that it was a forgery. I believe I quite clearly defended you on the Atlasshrugs blog, when many were attacking you for daring to question their beloved silver bullet. How dare you call me a “cultist” when I have been doing nothing but trying to inject careful circumspection into both sides of the debate. Please point to one statement I have made that was hot-headed or the product of a self-deluded man on a mission.
You really don’t think you are impressing me do you? I have tough standards for being impressed.
I was never trying to impress you. However, quite frankly, I have become quite unimpressed with you. I thought you a serious blogger who, while willing to argue with hot-heads, was not one himself.
Techdude has not just produced three COLBs that differ from the 2007 BHO, but by the logic of his first post I noted here those COLBs differ from the 2002 Decosta COLB and would be, by HIS logic, fakes.
What’s so difficult to understand, AJ? Obviously HI changed the border pattern sometime between 2002 and 2007. No one is disputing that. Thus, you were quite right to cry foul when many “cultists” were doing nothing more than comparing the 2007 Obama COLB with the 2002 Decosta COLB. But Techdude has produced COLBs from 2006 to 2008 that all have the same border pattern (assuming he is being candid). The 2007 Obama COLB, which would fall smack dab in the middle of that period does not match that consistent border pattern. That’s pretty good evidence that something is at least fishy. I’m not saying that that proves the Obama COLB is a forgery, but it should quite legitimately raise eyebrows such that anyone who would dismiss it out of hand would run the risk of being called an Obama cultist (which I know you’re not). Heck, maybe there were two different border patterns they used from 2006 to 2008. All I’m saying is that the “myth” has not been “busted.” The Obama COLB has not been proven authentic; others have simply failed to prove it inauthentic.
Techdude knows where I am coming from and he knows, deep down, he has done nothing more than the myth has not been proven impossible. But something plausible does not mean it is possible or likely, let alone fact. His conclusions have gone from fact, to plausible. He knows where he is headed.
Maybe you’re right. Hopefully, one side will soon carry its burden of proof to show forgery or authenticity. Until then, we’ll just have to accept a presumption of authenticity.
I think the whole thing is ridiculous.
I also think that the Michelle tape thing is a non issue until and unless it actually appears, which it probably won’t.
And please, Dale do not bring immigration into this,wrong place. Besides I think AJ was more right than wrong on that issue.
Presumption of innocence is pertinent to criminal matters and has nothing to do either with what your neighbors think of you or what they ought to think of you. It is strictly a legal protection.
There is certainly no such standard in voting for someone for elected office. Otherwise, every time a politician told an unconvincing lie, the voters would have to accept it just because there was no hard evidence to the contrary. All Politician X would have to say is: ‘My new position is not due to political expediency. You must believe that I have changed my position with each new audience because each time I have sincerely changed my personal views.’ There is no proof against this. And so none can be required.
Similarly, whenever a politician, just like any other job applicant, presents his credentials, the employer must presume them to be forgeries. (This is so at least in licensed professions.) Employers expect that documents may be false and therefore must be verified. But the burden of proof rests on the applicant to prove rather than the employer to disprove authenticity. Experience shows that if a school or former employer does not corroborate an assertion on a CV (perhaps due to the simplest laziness), the applicant may be passed over.
In the final analysis, politicians are especially among those professionals for whom presumption of innocence is particularly ill-advised.
Terrye:
AJ has a Blog.
He posts his opinion on various issues.
AJ also has a comment thread.
That is for people to post their opinons on his opinions.
It seems everything is just fine, unless we have the temerity to actually disagree with AJ’s opinion.
If we post slavish agreement with him, I’ve never seen an issue.
Ah, but dare to disagree, then you see what happens:
you get insulted
denigrated
mocked
called names
patronized
condescended
told how he is an “expert” in this and that, and you are obviously not…then insulted, mocked and denigrated again.
If you push your opinions back too strongly, and respond to the insults, then you are banned for insulting the host!
That’s the pattern Terrye, and you know it; just so we’re clear.
I know, I know, it’s AJ’s Blog, his rules; that’s fine, that’s the way he wants it; okay, I get it.
Also, for the record Terrye, AJ clearly things this COLB issue is important, that is is something like his 5th major post on it; some people disagree, they get insulted.
He also wrote SIXTEEN major posts on the “Whitey” tape issue; obviously, 5 – 16 posts on various topics, AJ thinks they are important, and its his Blog.
Again, he puts them up as his “opinion”; we’re just not allowed to disagree with his “opinion”, that’s all!
Dale,
Are you beyond having your opinion challenged? Are you afraid of the debate? Have your posts ever been deleted from my blog?
I think not. But damn, you do whine a lot! What do you want Dale, sunshine up your impressive skirt?
So drake, you have a law degree yet think questioning someone’s ACTUAL innocence or guilt is beyond the law?
They hand out that parchment to just about anybody these days.
Poor Dale, you read all those posts and missed the point? All those posts pointed to reasons why it DID NOT exist. But in the chance it did, I still called it what it was – cowardly rumor mongering.
And now Dale wants to join the rumor mongering, to lay down with the dogs he so despises.
LOL! And he wants applause as he does it. Dale – you and Larry J agree, what else is there to say?
So drake, you have a law degree yet think questioning someone’s ACTUAL innocence or guilt is beyond the law?
They hand out that parchment to just about anybody these days.
You have absolutely no comprehension of what I’ve tried to explain to you, do you?
Dale, see an earlier thread:
http://strata-sphere.com/blog/index.php/archives/5669#comments
where I pointed out that Ray was illiterate, in the tank for Obama and a troll
I think that it is humorous that you have busted him, big time. I’m a little suspicious that he may be Norm incognito.
You get any more links to that good stuff, let us know
Redteam wrote:
Dale, see an earlier thread:
http://strata-sphere.com/blog/index.php/archives/5669#comments
where I pointed out that Ray was illiterate, in the tank for Obama and a troll
I think that it is humorous that you have busted him, big time. I’m a little suspicious that he may be Norm incognito.
Let me get this straight – I’ve been ‘outed’ by you as a supporter of Obama – while I’ve been broadcasting my very recent growing support for him AFTER Hillary? That’s mighty perceptive of you. Keep up the good work.
Ray
I think not. But damn, you do whine a lot! What do you want Dale, sunshine up your impressive skirt?
Okay AJ; that’s a good one, I admit! Nice…
Ray: I’ll be respectful of AJ, and I’ll take his stuff, because
a) he’s a smart guy
b) his heart and head are in the right place
c) we disagree on this issue
d) despite above, he does have what I acknowledge I don’t have, and that is “technical expertise”
e) for all those reasons, he can tell me to piss off, and call me names, and we can disagree, because in the end, I respect him, and like his Blog, and I know that even if he is right, and I’m wrong, or vice versa, we’ll still get along at the end of the day.
But you, you little weasel, get NO such break from me!
I post this comment in toto, from the Atlas Blog, so every other reader over here, can see EXACTLY what a liar and fraud and fake you are, so no go away, WORM, you have been exposed, and CRUSHED!
I don’t know AJ from Adam, but based on his post above it certainly appears his ego is impeding any rational anaylsis to the topic. Implying that anyone who buys into the notion that the COLB is possibly a fake is mentally inferior and making other condescending remarks points to a lack of substance in AJ’s position and some perceived weakness in his previous analysis. If he was so certain of his point of view, he could certainly support that in a straightforawrd manner without the hystrionic estrogen laced tirade.
While AJ may take some comfort in the support of a provlaimed expert from Austrailia in his views, he may want to choose his allies more carefully.
It would appear that Mr. Ray Murphy is an infamous troll in the Land Down Under. Ray us a busy man. He is a self professed expert in many fields:
Legal expert
http://phorums.com.au/showthread.php?t=108557
http://phorums.com.au/showthread.php?t=108530
http://forums.travel.com/australia-railway-forum/227717-redfern-burns.html
“Your reputation for being wrong, often, coupled with my unfamiliarity
with Australian law makes asking the good folks in aus.legal to comment
pretty darned reasonable.”
http://www.slashlegal.com/showthread.php?t=71500
Space Aliens and Paranormal
http://alientalk.org/6178-time-top-study.html#post24184
Astrology
http://alt.nntp2http.com/astrology/pro/2008/06/8704d86f927751dbdd52fcd0483e14d3.html
http://alt.nntp2http.com/astrology/pro/2008/06/046366f99e1851eb4538f3fbcc1e6fab.html
http://www.legalspring.com/articles/misc-legal/20040430/0_Edmond-Wollmann-acce.html
http://www.groupsrv.com/science/about37273.html
http://www.groupsrv.com/science/about38596.html
Computer Expert
http://www.disnorge.no/slektsforum/viewtopic.php?p=176084
Wireless Phones
http://www.wirelessforums.org/aus-comms-mobile/re-pay-destination-43999.html
Genealogy
http://genforum.genealogy.com/melody/messages/11.html
http://www.disnorge.no/slektsforum/viewtopic.php?t=39969
Ray’s expertise as demonstrated in his acumen in technology has earned him the moniker “Raytard”, bestowed by his fellow Aussies:
http://www.groupsrv.com/science/about38596.html
Ray’s legal acumen has likewise earned him the nickname “Raytard”
http://www.slashlegal.com/showthread.php?t=6378
While AJ has garnered himself a devote ally in his position, based on Ray’s performance here and the reputation he has earned in the Land of OZ, such an allegience would lead me to question my conclusions.
DaleinAtlanta wrote:
Terrye:
AJ has a Blog.
He posts his opinion on various issues.
AJ also has a comment thread.
That is for people to post their opinons on his opinions.
It seems everything is just fine, unless we have the temerity to actually disagree with AJ’s opinion.
If we post slavish agreement with him, I’ve never seen an issue.
Ah, but dare to disagree, then you see what happens:
you get insulted
denigrated
mocked
called names
patronized
condescended
told how he is an “expert†in this and that, and you are obviously not…then insulted, mocked and denigrated again.
[…..]
————
But how would I know if that is broadly true? I mean you’ve done nothing but lie about me ALL DAY today, so I figure that there’s a very high probability that you do it to others as well – and probably moreso to switched on people like AJ.
Even if by some chance you’re telling the truth this time – isn’t that sort of thing better than being lied about? At least people can see it f it happens, but with lies like yours, no one really knows.
Ray
P.S. I got disconnected at the other group, immediately after someone requested it, so I’ll have to talk to Techdude from here and get my head kicked in by you from here as well I guess 🙂