Jan 27 2008
The McCain Effect – An Amnesty Hypochondriac Production
How is it John McCain is now best positioned to win the GOP nomination? If he wins FL (and recent endorsements by Gov Crist and Sen Martinez shows he has some gathering strength there) he will have supposedly turned the GOP on its head. Rush Limbaugh predicts the end of the party as we all know it if McCain is nominated. McCain is very liberal on a lot of issues, most notably the comprehensive immigration reform bill he worked with other ‘traitors’ like GOP Sen Kyl and the head RINO himself, El Presidente Jorge Bush – as the hyper-partisan amnesty hypochondriacs like to say to charm those who they disagree with. McCain is the one candidate who represents the antithesis of conservative AM radio talk shows, yet he continues to build momentum – how is that? Fred Thompson did the talk show circuit daily before SC, and came in a dismal 3rd. It was as if the more he talked to Hannity the lower his numbers went?
And the more Rushbo and Ingrahm and Levin rail against McCain the stronger he grows! I am beginning to understand that it is not McCain who turned the GOP on its head, he is the beneficiary of those who did turn the GOP on its head – The Amnesty Hypochondriacs. That is my affectionate, tongue-in-cheek label for those who would lose all to deport all long term, law abiding (excepting their lack of work permits, which is misdemeanor) illegals. And it seems they have succeeded – in losing all they had and hold dear. I cannot help but notice McCain’s support keeps growing as the hyper-partisan talking heads ramble on and on about how liberal he his. It’s as if the electorate is trying to find the most annoying candidate for all those who belittled those they disagreed with and now have destroyed conservative coalition.
Rush and others hint they may sit home this election, and that seems to spurn even more support for McCain. It seems America wants the Mary Poppins conservatives to sit home this election and measure themselves against their purity measuring tapes, self absorbed with their inherent purity and perfection in all things conservative. They seem to be pushing with all their might, through their support of McCain, to call the bluff or threat of the hyper-partisans.
I made a critical and basic error in my predictions of the 2006 race – I seriously underestimated the dislike of the GOP. I was not happy with them, but I had not realized I would be one of the last conservative independents to give up and try the Dems. I thought there was a little political collateral left to save the GOP for one more try. Part of that is due to the fact I don’t shift positions radically or with the wind. Thus why I never budged on Iraq, Harriet Miers, low taxes, Dubai Ports, the ban on Embryonic Stem Cell research, comprehensive immigration. I mix to be sure – but I have seen no reason to move on any of these issues. I don’t switch positions very dramatically. So I was not ready to dismiss the GOP too easily. Well, that is me – not America.
This year I am not going to be so blind. Dem turnout is just overwhelming GOP turnout in the primaries (see addendum below). And one of the most liberal GOP senators, one even I would not want to support because he is too left of me on too many issues, is leading the pack for the GOP nomination. The purity wars of the GOP clearly did more damage than I thought. McCain is strong on defense and spending, but he is also strong – in the supposedly wrong way – on immigration. That was supposed to be his Achille’s Heel, the one thing that would bring him down. It is not working out that way. The one issue I thought would stop McCain (and surprisingly the one we agree on!) is not doing what I expected. It is not slowing him down and may be propelling him forward.
Now I am wondering if there is a correlation between McCain’s growing support and the growing rants from the far right. Is this not the real reason why things are all upside down in the GOP? We know the GOP has been hurt by the stubborn purists, but maybe we have underestimated the damage they have done. The GOP is losing statewide elections in once red states like VA, and it lost 6 Senate seats in 2006, and is experiencing a wave of retirements from the 1994 wave when the GOP took over Congress. And I think those retirements are another sign that people who wanted to change America for the better are walking away from a party now over run by people who want a party in their own narrow images. They came to change Washington DC and found too many of their colleagues were changed by DC. Good decent people turned into heckling echoes of Begala and Carville instead of leaders of a new era. As Huckabee so aptly said in the FL debate: non-republicans.
I have no delusions, my views on policies are my own. I don’t believe they are “practically perfect in every way” – as the Mary Poppins conservatives crow – or, more importantly, perfect in every situation. I don’t try to impose my views, I share them and look for like minded people to follow a path of common ground, knowing there are areas all around us where we disagree and may end up opponents. I don’t hate people because one day we agree on one thing and the next we oppose each other. But the hyper-partisan hot-heads have no similar self confidence or self control. And the result is stunning.
I am pretty sure there is a backlash against the Mary Poppins Conservatives in the nation. The more they fight for their purity views the more greater America responds in the opposite direction. The more Fred Thompson haunted conservative talk radio the further down his numbers went. The more Rush and Hannity go after McCain the stronger McCain gets. The more the far right rails against the impure the larger the democrat crowds get.
When the purity wars erupted over Miers I could see the train wreck coming, and here is what I said back then:
The anti-Miers crowd won a pyrrhic victory today. The extreme right’s confidence and tolerance was tested, and found wanting. Instead of debating the merits of Miers, and allowing her to get to the confirmation hearings – too many in that crowd demeaned Miers and those, like me, who wanted to know who she was before rising in opposition. Their confidence was a charade as they panicked and lashed out in a way I thought republicans had outgrown and only liberals still did.
It is clear now that us impure conservatives cannot be allowed to participate in any meaningful or leading roles. We are not pure bloods with clear lineage to the far right cause.
…
The message from the Miers fiasco is clear. Only purebloods can be offered for positions of responsibility. If you are not a pureblood, then there is no depth the purebloods will go to knock you down as a mudblood.
…
And that is what is left of the conservative movement. We now have two factions who will never trust each other, and where name calling skirmishes will break out more and more often. It has already started. The genie is out of the bottle and cannot be put back in now.
I was sadly correct in where this would lead. When Dubai Ports erupted from the same panicky group I and many others saw the next phase in the unavoidable implosion of the GOP governing coalition. The final straw, all around, was immigration reform – which knocked the GOP out of control of Congress. Here is one of my many posts sampling the out of control anger of the amnesty hypochondriacs:
Post the list of traitors.
We’ll pull together the list of their corporate sponsors (because I can’t think of who else pushed them to vote for it) and start a boycott.
…
get the roll call.
Let’s crack some heads.
…
And with that, I leave the GOP.
Goodbye, guys.
…
This Is Fargin’ War!
…
Can you say United States of Mexico! Courtesy of our RINOS and RATS! I saw the soccer game between the USA and Mexico from Chicago and the stadium was filled with folk loyal to the RED, WHITE and GREEN…chants for Mexico drowned the USA chants…imagine that in our own land….USM!
…
Treason.
…
Prez. Bush needs horse-whipping.
After all this is anyone is surprised there has been a backlash against conservatism? If not I can’t help them. Bush was respectful and a compassionate conservative who refused to get in the gutter. And for that decorum he was pilloried by those who seem to have trouble getting out of gutter politics. I heard Hannity ask a liberal caller from MD Friday what happened to her, did her parents beat or abuse her? It was a sick and disrespectful joke. It was another immature and insecure stab at someone who simply disagrees. It ranks right up there with Michelle and others going after the Baltimore family for speaking positively about S-CHIP.
I was wrong. I underestimated the damage the hyper-partisans have done to the GOP. It sounds like America is ready to destroy the party Rush holds dear and are inviting him to sit out 2008. McCain is a poke in the eye to the far right and America seems hell bent on poking that eye. Heck, he is the pick of the NY Times! I did not expect this. I feel good about McCain on national defense, pork spending and immigration. Some might expect me to be happy about his rise, but he is not really my top choice (or second or third). No, I am not happy to see how utterly destroyed the party is because of some hot-heads without self control and dignity and honor.
In the end I don’t think this matters much, because if Obama wins the dem nomination he will steam roll McCain. But it is interesting to see how much success the Amnesty hypochondriacs have had in 2008. Not only have their standard bearers all been forced out of the race, their nemesis is leading the pack to the nomination. Now that I did not expect, but then again I underestimated how much rejection the hypochondriacs where able to build up amongst their one time allies. I did not expect it or want it, but it is here.
Addendum: In case people missed all the news regarding the tsunami of democrat voter turnout I have posts on the matter from SC Dem and SC GOP (where the dems had enormous increases to record highs), New Hampshire and Iowa.
Given the early voting numbers in FL, where Dems are competing with the GOP numbers though their primary supposedly doesn’t count, I would say this trend is continuing. If the FL turnout numbers continue to show this kind of massive turnout differential favoring the dems all the GOP is doing is re-arranging deck chairs on their Titanic.
Update: National Review still thinks immigration works for them and against McCain. Boy, are they in for a shock.
66 Responses to “The McCain Effect – An Amnesty Hypochondriac Production”
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Although McCain isn’t my first pick either, I don’t think his nomination would be as “catastrophic” as you do. First of all, I think he *can* win, even against Obama. (although I still think Hillary will be the nominee) Second, don’t count out Romney yet – he could still take it as well.
If these polls are right, though, Rudy’s sit-out-the-early-ones strategy will turn out to have been one of the greatest campaign blunders since Dukakis took a ride in a tank. Rudy had it, and he blew it.
AJ
My personal opinion is you over rate this split issue because of your background.
My outside view of VA I can only read about not being a local is that simple migration and growth of libs in northern Va for housing tipped a lot of the changes more than anything else I have read about, but again that’s an outsider perspective taken with some salt.
To me Huck has skewed this whole race making classic conservatives look weaker than they actually are by holding them on religious grounds they put slightly above conservative loyalty but not likely to be center right leaners. Can’t imagine Falwell endorsing McCain for example. Huck is throwing the whole perception off and few realize how much.
Interesting to see Lynn Cheney endorse Mitt today because if you look Mitt has a lot of campaign staff in common with Jeb and GWB.
I think Jeb might endorse Mitt soon in FL to counter the Christ/Martinez endorsement but they really don’t want a strong link of Mitt to the Bush family so Mitt doesn’t have to fight the combined BDS/mormon twofer in the general.
Correction that was Liz Cheney the daughter who endorsed Mitt.
Believe she is being used as a signal like Caroline Kennedy for Obama same manner.
Captains Quarters endorsed Mitt today also.
You’re right about dislike for the GOP brand, continuing from 2006, but you are 100% on the immigration issue. Profligate spending, Foley-gate, “culture of corruption”, weariness with the Iraq War, and Bush’s very low approval were the main contributors to an anti-GOP wave that was too much to overcome. On illegal immigration, however, talking tough was & is a winning position. In the 2006 elections where illegal immigration was key, the dem challengers took the issue away by being equally tough or even going to the right of the repub. Why do you think McCain has flipped & now talks tougher? If he didn’t, he wouldn’t be in the position he is in.
You’re inference about Thompson not catching as being proof of blowback is incorrect. Thompson didn’t catch on because he turned out to be a lousy campaigner; he really didn’t put forth the effort until it was too late. So-called electabilty is perhaps the main reason why McCain is doing so well. Of course, this is advanced by the MSM, partly because they dislike the GOP. Come the general election, their support for McCain will be long-forgotten as they rally behind the dem.
100% “wrong” is what I meant wrt to illegal immigration.
Wiley,
Watch and learn. Once McCain sews up the nomination he will pivot back to the centrist position he holds dear. You do notice all the ‘dirt’ McCain is getting from amnesty hypochondriacs and how it is not sticking?
So let me get this straight, the people felt the GOP spent too much so they went with the Dems???? We could not surrender fast enough in Iraq – and that is why they support McCain who is against pullouts????
LOL! Where do you get these things? That is just denial speaking.
AJ, I largely agree with you here. I can only speak for myself and I freely admit I am finding great pleasure in supporting John McCain, to the consternation of all the pitchforking purists. But that is a *bonus,* NOT the *reason* I’m supporting McCain now. I emphasize: I did NOT travel a spiteful and angry rebound path to John McCain!
Since removing myself from the echo chamber about two years ago, I’ve been seeing everything more clearly and more objectively. I deleted the old data and slogans and spiteful nicknames assigned by Rush, Hannity, Ingraham, et al. Most important, I deleted the old memes and errant strategies and thinking — which long ago replaced actual ideas in the chamber.
What happened to me more than anything is, I learned from you and others that compromise, advancing the ball incrementally, and especially a little thing thing called *winning* are all worthy and intelligent pursuits. I learned to appreciate — and crave — anyone who spoke English, sans the cheap sloganeering, petty namecalling, and hysterical visions of impending doom. I hauled out a few of my books on Reagan and discovered he was the original author of the winning approach. He did it naturally, through his deep and warm understanding of human beings, and with steely resolve on a very small set of universally held desires and principles.
So in 2008, with my cleanly wiped hard drive that left only a basic operating system as a guide, I endorsed Rudy early on, wearing his bumper sticker since last February, 2007. I’ve paid pretty close attention and watched most of the debates. Huckabee threw a major wrench into the mechanics and I was one of the first to tell my friends ‘this is a guy to watch.’ And, ‘he has struck a nerve with me and quite a few other Americans.’ Huck definitely changed the equation, but Rudy did not respond or retool his risky strategy. Rudy began to lose my rapt attention. Rudy also began to fade and lose stature in the debates. Then immigration reared its ugly head, and Rudy, Thompson, Huck & Mitt launched themselves over the cliff. Rudy pulled out of that nose dive, but without impressive courage or clarity. Now he’s in Florida making love to Cubans and perhaps for the first time realizing how badly he miscalculated early on.
Meanwhile, over in the corner stood an Irish guy with a twinkle in his eye that everyone seemed to take for dead — and dead wrong — on immigration. He was dismissed by the choir as “McAmnesty.” Well, he was NOT dead wrong. Matter of fact he was the only guy who spoke for me, and who supported GWB’s reasonable, doable, practical and moral approach all along. So, what *else* might John McCain not be wrong about? Oh yeah. The war.
I find more and more reasons every day to question chamber-think. Gang of 14? Hello Judge Alito and Roberts, plus a list of other judges down the hierarchy. McCain-Feingold? Get over it. It has made no difference in my life whatsoEVER. The worst that can be said about it: dumb, meaningless legislation based on good intentions. And further, you can’t find a dozen normal non-political junkies who even know what the hell it is. Tax and spend liberal? I am laughing out loud now. The same croakers pushing that lie are willing to soil themselves promoting Romney as a conservative warrior! (Which he isn’t, and which by the way I am more than willing to overlook should Mitt seize the nomination.) Hot tempered and maverick? Hell yeah, and I love it. Those are also two of the attributes I most like about Rudy.
Bottom line, I think the wildly shifting political winds, combined with the incessant assault of the Yappers (who I increasingly believe are dead wrong on just about everything) have drawn me into the orbit of John McCain. I find my brain supporting him for strategic and ideological reasons, and with every passing hour I become more enthusiastic about him as a man, a leader, a war hero, and someone who does not suffer fools or pander for affection. I am ashamed to say I once read a bunch of crap about McCain being a traitor and a “Manchurian Candidate.” I learned the truth about the source of those lies (primarily one Ted Sampley) and I was told in person, in Sept. 2004, eyeball-to-eyeball, by a POW who spent over a year in an adjoining dirt cell, that all of those allegations about McCain are completely false. This POW by the way, hastened to add that he did not agree with many of McCain’s political beliefs, but that McCain’s service to our country was without blemish… and further, his service was exceptional and inspirational in the extreme.
Do I want to see the pitchforkers go down in flames? Oh yes. It would be a magnificent two-fer if this nation elected John McCain. He’s a rock solid and reasonable conservative, and he doesn’t take marching orders from fringe lunatics willing to sell us all down the drain for an ego trip. I believe at this moment McCain is the one candidate in the field who can beat both the Right Wing tyrants and either of the Left Wing candidates in November.
I’m as surprised as anyone to have arrived at this juncture. But here I am, and feeling very darn good about it.
Sorry for the long post, but this essay has been bubbling up for awhile now. I will make a donation to offset the intrusion. Seriously! : )
I happen to agree with Wiley. I also think that you put way too much emphasis on the immigration issue as the reason the GOP is in trouble. McCain’s rise is also partially due to heavy coverage from a mainstream media that has chosen to give him a pass on his liberal views and present him as a right of center moderate while at the same time bashing first Fred, Rudy and now they’ve moved on to Mitt.
The Republicans have a wide range of views in the candidates that they are trying to select and one will pull votes from the other when it comes to each persons important issues. McCain also gets votes because he’s been a strong supporter of the war which always polls as a top priority for Republicans, not just because he’s for comprehensive immigration reform. If the media actually covered acurately the fact that Dr. Juan Hernandez is part of his campaign you would probably find some backlash to McCain because the man appears to have very radical views on immigration that won’t sit well with even moderate republicans or independents.(or moderate democrats for that matter) And I am still curious what you think of Dr. Hernandez…
You may be completely right and we will be faced with a McCain…I hope not, but I still believe that you place the immigration issue far to high on voter’s agendas. I still hope that as the field of candidates narrows down that it won’t be McCain rising to the top.
Whippet1,
Of course you agree with Wiley, but listen to yourself. GOP voters, who distrust and despise the media, are flocking to McCain because the liberal media tells them to???
The conservative voters KNOW where McCain sits on illegal immigrants – they are not naive! LOL!
Face it, they know and flock to McCain anyway, or is it because???
Sally Vee,
Please post more! You and agree, as do others like Michael Medved, that some went too far and left the coalition. You say it so well (and if you want you can have a few guest posts here at Strata-Sphere) I am honored you spend the time to share your thoughts.
I am coming to grips with a lot of possibilities – including a President Obama. Clearly the country has moved center left if the two top candidates are Obama and McCain. Too far for my taste, but not so far I am ready to panic.
Many GOP voters (and voters in general) have nothing other than the MSM media as their source for information. They see McCain as a Republican and believe that means he supports Republican issues and the media at this point isn’t going to tell them otherwise…that will come when the Democrats pick their nominee.
Voters are not naive but I would bet that most have no idea what McCain’s views are on immigration. He’s trying to portray himself as more conservative and the willing media is along for the ride. They may mistrust the media but when it’s their primary source of information it’s difficult to sort out the entire truth.
I think this primary season is being affected by so many candidates and that if McCain gets the nomination it will be by default. The GOP primary votes are split between 5 candidates at this point…I’m waiting to see what happens when that field is narrowed.
And if it’s immigration hypocondriacs driving voters to McCain, how would you explain Rassmussen showing McCain and Romney in a dead heat nationally? Unless I’m mistaken, isn’t that a rise for Romney?
Whippet, this is exasperating. I’m quite well informed and quite aware of McCain’s views on immigration. I am also a conservative (even though I refrain from using that label anymore). You seem unable to accept that McCain’s position on immigration is exactly mine, and redounds to his credit on my score sheet! Immigration is not my only reason for supporting McCain, but I think it is the real reason so many hard line “conservatives” oppose him, though they cloak it within layers of other specious reasoning.
As long as we secure the border, I could care less about immigration. I think both McCain and Romney would be effective presidents. Romney would be the greater one — but those are just my thoughts. I am not even sure what I am — an independent, conservative or republican — I’ll tell you where I stand, and leave it to the rest to define me.
The reason why McCain is getting votes is because of the Rudy plunge. And AJ ignores the fact that Romney is gaining momentum. Whippet1 analysis is for the most part right.
SallyVee,
I’m sorry if I have exasperated you with my opinions and I didn’t know that I was accusing you of being uninformed. Since I was commenting to AJ, it was not my intention to accept or not accept that McCain’s position on immigration is exactly yours. I wasn’t referring to you at all.
I have read AJ for quite some time and find his posts to be informative and educational. I value his opinion even though I disagree with him on immigration. After tiring of the over the top rhetoric by many “hard line conservatives” on that particular issue I liked AJ’s more moderate approach and agree with him on some of his immigration stance but not on others. I just do not feel that it is the main reason that McCain is doing well in the primary contests. And I do not think that his position on immigration is the only reason many conservatives oppose him. Of course that’s just my opinion but there are many issues for conservatives to shy away from McCain, immigration being only one of them.
If McCain’s your guy, great! I’m still unsure who my guy is but I do know it’s not McCain. Would I vote for him in the general? Absolutely! Would I hold my nose doing it? Yes…but my big issue is the War on Terror and on that count I can trust McCain.
“Would I vote for him in the general? Absolutely!”
Excellent, that’s something I like to hear and don’t hear often enough these days.
We should all admit that Florida may hold big surprises, and the whole game could once again change next Wednesday morning. But if we agree that *whoever* the GOP nominates is the answer to ‘who gets my vote in November?’ then we can prevail on the big important stuff.
Hi all, As a Christian conservative I will state my reason as to why I, nor my husband and many of my other family members will NEVER vote for Sen. McCain. If it’s between he and Sen. Obama, I would sooner vote for Sen. Obama then McCain. At least I’ll know what I’m getting. I do not agree with almost anything Obama stands for. It would only be his nationality and because I think maybe in some way that can help our Nation. I personally think he would be a bad President. But I could NEVER vote for McCain. Eventhough I admire what he went through as a young man, the man can not be trusted, now as he has proven these past 7 years. He loves the msm and craves there approval too much. In my opinion, he is not a person one can rely on, and that includes the Supreme Court picks. If the Senate rules had been allowed to change, like I feel the Dems will do if needed, Alito and Chief Justice Roberts would have been confirmed anyways. So please don’t use there conformations as his achievement. Because the rules in the Senate were not allowed to change, many of President Bush Judges for the lower court went by the way side thanks ALL to Senator John McCain and the “Gang of 14″. If it’s Hillary and McCain, I will not be voting this year for President. Senator McCain may be strong on the war on terror, but he could have supported our President a lot more instead of playing fast and loose with the President and msm. If he had, maybe public opinion wouldn’t be so bad toward not only President Bush, but the war on Terror in general. Who know. IMHO
Hi all, As a Christian conservative I will state my reason as to why I, nor my husband and many of my other family members will NEVER vote for Sen. McCain. If it’s between he and Sen. Obama, I would sooner vote for Sen. Obama then McCain. At least I’ll know what I’m getting. I do not agree with almost anything Obama stands for. It would only be his nationality and because I think maybe in some way that can help our Nation. I personally think he would be a bad President. But I could NEVER vote for McCain. Eventhough I admire what he went through as a young man, the man can not be trusted, now as he has proven these past 7 years. He loves the msm and craves there approval too much. In my opinion, he is not a person one can rely on, and that includes the Supreme Court picks. If the Senate rules had been allowed to change, like I feel the Dems will do if needed, Alito and Chief Justice Roberts would have been confirmed anyways. So please don’t use there conformations as his achievement. Because the rules in the Senate were not allowed to change, many of President Bush Judges for the lower court went by the way side thanks ALL to Senator John McCain and the “Gang of 14″. If it’s Hillary and McCain, I will not be voting this year for President. Senator McCain may be strong on the war on terror, but he could have supported our President a lot more instead of playing fast and loose with the President and msm. If he had, maybe public opinion wouldn’t be so bad toward not only President Bush, but the war on Terror in general. Who know. IMHO
Ouch SallyVee. I am afraid you nailed my hide to the wall with that “I emphasize: I did NOT travel a spiteful and angry rebound path to John McCain!
I will vote McCain (added plus: and shut my mouth) if he is the candidate. If I had to sum up my observations and why I really hoped for another candidate, it would boil down to his holier-than-thou attitudes. Huck might be the Preacher but McCain has the self rightousness down.
Yes, I have had to give myself political vacations since 2006 because I start going down that ’spiteful and angry path’. I become so angry when I get hit with a Peggy Noonan or Malkin, I spit.
AJ, you mention Ingraham. Long ago, I said Malkin, Ingraham and Lopez were pushing the GOP over the cliff. O’Reilly has allowed Malkin and Ingraham to host his show several times. My personal theory is that he is hiding behind them to promote his new BDS without taking the heat. Well, Ingraham did a prolonged Purity list in her talking points and then proceeded to lovefest with Noonan about how that bad ole Bush mislead the little darlings. Over a million viewers listened to this drivel.
Hi all, As a Christian conservative I will state my reason as to why I, nor my husband and many of my other family members will NEVER vote for Sen. McCain. If it’s between he and Sen. Obama, I would sooner vote for Sen. Obama then McCain. At least I’ll know what I’m getting. I do not agree with almost anything Obama stands for. It would only be his nationality and because I think maybe in some way that can help our Nation. I personally think he would be a bad President. But I could NEVER vote for McCain. Eventhough I admire what he went through as a young man, the man can not be trusted, now as he has proven. He loves the msm and craves there approval too much. In my opinion, he is not a person one can rely on, and that includes the Supreme Court picks. If the Senate rules had been allowed to change, like I feel the Dems will do if needed, Alito and Chief Justice Roberts would have been confirmed anyways. So please don’t use there conformations as his achievement. Because the rules in the Senate were not allowed to change, many of President Bush Judges for the lower court went by the way side thanks ALL to Senator John McCain and the “Gang of 14″. If it’s Hillary and McCain, I will not be voting this year for President. Senator McCain may be strong on the war on terror, but he could have supported our President a lot more instead of playing fast and loose with the Presided and msm. If he had, maybe public opinion weren’t be so bad toward not only President Bush, but the war on Terror in general. Who know.
SallyVee,
I believe that most conservatives, whoever they currently support, will vote for the nominee even if it’s not their choice of candidate.
I soured on Michelle Malkin and others over the whole Meirs/Dubai Ports deal because she was promoting not voting in the mid terms to send a message to the party. I figure, why cut your nose off to spite your face?
Don’t get me wrong, I personally think McCain is more left of center than a lot of conservative Dems but when faced with an Obama or Hillary? He’s far right of them so you go with the choices you’re left with.
There certainly could be some surprises to come…we’ll see! It certainly makes the primary season more exciting than in years past!
McCain starting his move from last place…when he got so grilled on the road and early on in his campaign for his positions and statements on immigration that he finally admitted openly that he made mistakes in how he approached the immigration reform bill….and that he recognized border security and enforcement/capability issues have to come first and be a part of any kind of large scale immigration reform package. McCain said that himself. He still says it. He still admits that his early attempt to pass the reform bill “without” those things was a mistake. And that he “heard us”. That this was an important issue that cut across political lines. But, I’m not so sure than when he said ‘he heard us” and had changed his view on this, that he was talking about your position (which would not have required any change in position from him). Because, as you have said…you have not changed your position..which was the bill should have been passed as it was and that such arguments about the border security and or enforcement mechanisms..was simply a distraction created by hypocondriacs whos real motivation was in seeing all the “illegals” deported. I’m fairly certain that’s not what McCain was talking about when he said he recognized that his earlier position (that you agreed with and expoused here) was ill reasoned.
So McCain..has come to realize and acknowledge something in this issue that many who supported the first bill and efforts along with him have failed to acknoweldge and or admit….that they were wrong/misinformed on what the touch points of this issue were in regards to how most US citizens felt about it. His campaign started to take off the day he did that.
Yea right…McCain is a “lefty” and Lieberman is a “righty”. Maybe McCain should ask Lieb to be his VP? Ha. That would give some people fits woiuldn’t it!!
What you are observing is the entire politcal spectrum moving “left”. In the end..that’s going to be a more inclusive “good” thing for the RNC…and it’s going to be a “bad”, less inclusive, thing for the DNC. (or at least…more of a problem for them..given after their 04 shellacking..instead of reforming the party they just moved harder left out of spite!!). At least, for not, it looks like the RNC isn’t going to make the same mistake…but after some gnashing of teeth…rebuild the party and leadership in a way that makes the most sense. At least they haven’t forced McCain out of the RNC yet as they did Lieberman.
The reason the RNC has become so disjointed is many. But, it started with them taking down Delay. The RNC leadership never recovered. They were sitting on multiple scandals (money, sex, etc.) Delay was the one who kept the structure of the party in any sort of order. Once he was gone, it was simply a matter of time for that whole house that started long ago to crumble. It had been cracking for years.
It will rebuild anew…and it may very well be a more moderate/inclusive house than it was. Like you, I don’t think that’s bad thing. However, I think the DNC is the one that’s really going to have a tough time. I think they are going to move soo far left that it’s going to leave an open middle wide enough for a 3rd party. I also think maybe that won’t be so bad. However, you have to realize..the more parties you have…the less influence the winning party will have..as your “majority” is only going to be diluted.
Maybe that’s not a bad thing either. Maybe at that point, the President and the exec branch can go back to doing their job as an independent branch of gov. in a leadership and dept of state capacity…instead of having 2 way yahoos travelling around underminding everything they try to do with policy, etc.,
Owl, the worst thing the Pitchfork Gang does is slime everyone (except their messiah of the moment) and transfer their sour, imperious, dirty minded thinking to anyone within earshot. The funniest thing of course, is that whoever plays ball with conservative terrorists will soon find his/her neck on the chopping block… one false move and the seething hordes of hell will be unleashed on the poor soul. So not only do normal Republicans have to fight the pitchforkers when they go after moderates and mavericks, we have to anticipate defending the conservative messiahs as well, each of whom will inevitably step out of line and be proven human. The Pitchfork Gang leaves pile after stinking pile of B.S. and wounded bodies in their wake, and never seem to care about much besides the following week’s hysterical talking points, and which lucky dog will be singled for the next wilding. Seriously, who ARE these people?
Dc:
McCain has come to realize that we have to emphasis securing the border. He has never agreed to the all or nothing crap being pushed by people like Malkin who assume that any sort of normalization is wrong.
What McCain has done is to show that in spite of the raving out there that says he is a traitor and God only knows what else, he is in fact capable of compromise. Too bad the same thing can not be said for the folks who are threatening to stay home and pout if he wins.
What happen to my previous post??
What happen to my previous post??
SallyVee:
That was a great post. And you said what I felt in so many ways.
Aj:
McCain has a conservative rating of 82.5%. He is not a liberal. He has been endorsed by conservatives like Jack Kemp and Phil Gramm. Now ask yourself, would those guys endorse a liberal? I mean really…he is strong on national security and he is a fiscal conservative. He is pro life. That is not too bad.
I would vote for whoever got the nomination. I don’t think Romney would be a bad president as far as that is concerned. But one thing I really do like about McCain, I have the feeling he would stand up for himself and tell people like Rush to stuff a sock in it. That might be nice for a change.
SallyVee
“Conservative terrorists”? “Pitchfork gang”?
When you criticize others for name calling and for classifying others based on how “pure” they are by calling them names and classifying them as acting too “pure” you become just like them. And then no one listens anymore.
Pot meet kettle.
Whippeti:
Yeah, well they can dish it out but they can not take it. That is why people are sick and tired of them.
They can call names, question patriotism, stab a war time president in the back, do all sorts of things…but the Republican base is supposed to just keep eating it up.
I was the Dollar store buying cleaning supplies the other day and Rush was on the radio…blah blah blah…no one was paying the slightest attention to him.
People are just tired of hearing it and what goes around, comes around.
Terrye,
I agree they shouldn’t have been name calling in the first place. That’s why I have “issues” with those who do and why I will have issues with those who criticize others because of it and then do it themselves.
Whippet, think of it as shorthand for the exhausted among us. I suppose I could say “self-proclaimed conservative standard bearers who hold hostage those who disagree with them on any subject.” Or I could say “the group of extremely loud, repetitive demagogues using their microphones to attack en masse the current recipient of their collective ire.” Admit it, you’d find that as annoying to read as I would to type.
I find it quite amusing that those of us who are just lately — finally — beginning to speak up against the tsunami of irresponsible rhetoric and increasingly authoritarian demands and threats by “conservative” babblers, are cautioned about our tactics and use of language. At some point, a wee bit of push-back was inevitable doncha think? I wish I could be kinder in some instances. The truth is, the silence of the lambs among us has greatly intensified the problems created by bullying loudmouths who believed themselves to be unopposed.
SallyVee,
All I’m saying is if you criticize someone for their tactics and then use the same tactics it dilutes the message…
I can certainly understand how you would feel a “push-back is inevitable.” But if you feel bullied by their tactics why choose to use the same tactics? Wouldn’t you then make others feel bullied?
AJ – “watch & learn” — you’re funny. My analysis is reality. You actually beleive that Bush & the Iraq War was not an anchor for the repubs in 2006? I think Bush has been a stalwart on Iraq and GWOT, but his low approval and the difficulties we were having in Iraq at the time hurt the GOP badly, as did their spending and corruption label. If the party that used to be for fiscal restraint and limited govt was now shown to be nothing of the sort, then what incentive was there for the base, or for the middle who also dislike wasteful spending? When the best you got is a retort that mis-characterizes what I said, then you know you’re on shaky ground.
If McCain wins the nomination he WON’t go soft on illegal immigration, but he may very well talk more centrist on other positions. But for the immigration issue, being serious about securing the borders and getting control over who we let into our country is the priority and a winning position.
Like Whippet, I will certainly vote for McCain over any of the dems. As DC observed, the political spectrum is moving left, and this certainly includes the GOP with Bush as the figure-head. Conservatives haven’t moved — conservative positions are unchanged, it’s the party that they were the bedrock for that is moving. And that’s why so many are so passionate. The danger of McCain as the nominee is that the conservative base will once again be feeling disrespected and disenfranchised. Most will vote for him, but some won’t and the base will not be energized except to oppose Hillary. And that may not be enough.
ie…Rush, etc.,
Or, you could just say people who hold opions on politics and social issues different than yours?
But, then, that would sort of put things in a different perspective.
I’m asking this again…what are the odds that Ron Paul will come back and run as an independent?
I hope he does not.
No Dc that is not what I mean. I am talking about the mean spirited malicious people who treat people like me as if we were just supposed to vote for whoever they tell us to and shut the hell up. I have no problem with people seeing the world differently than I do. Most grownups don’t.
For years Rush has sit there like some potentate, making millions while he never has to do anything but yammer. No one asked him to be accountable, no one asked Malkin to do a better job than the pol she is accusing of God knows what, no one ask Hannity to run for office and show us how it is done rather than treat everyone who does not kiss his butt as if they were a traitor or just plain brain damaged. These people don’t DO anything.
I do not listen to talk radio anymore. There are dozens of blogs I no longer look at.
I have been voting GOP for a long time and it is as if these people despise me. So why should I want to listen to them?
And AJ is not alone. The Pink Flamingo has the same feelings. There are more and more people reacting to the negativity and the hatred.
And while people are on the subject, reassuring themselves that immigration is a winner for them and McCAin Feingold is a bad awful thing, keep in mind the Democrats are ahead and they are not exactly known to be hardliners. I wonder what Obama’s immigration policy will be?
And in terms of the general election, campaign finance reform is a winner because the general public is a lot more concerned about rich people buying elections than they are about some pol not being able to maximize his ad campaign.
The truth is some conservatives have spent way too much time listening to the talking heads. Regular people do not see the world the way Rush and Malkin do. They just don’t. In fact they are tired of hearing it.
Terrye,
“For years Rush has sit there like some potentate, making millions while he never has to do anything but yammer.”
I have no problem if you don’t like Rush…I’m not very fond of him. Tend to like WHAT he says but not the WAY he says it. But you sure exposed yourself with that comment along with…”Democrats are ahead and they are not exactly known to be hardliners”, or “rich people buying elections”.
First, Rush is accountable…if no one likes what he says they don’t listen and he ceases to make money. He’s a product plain and simple. When he ceases to make money his radio show will not exist.
By rich people buying elections I’m not sure who you mean because it doesn’t matter how much money a rich candidate has he still has to get the message out and attract voters or he won’t win. His money just makes it easier.
By Democrats not being hardliners I have no idea what you mean or you aren’t listening to those on the left. Take a visit to some of the left blogs that are courted by many of the Democratic candidates, like say Daily Kos and see how “hardline” they can be. Or have you not been listing to the rancor between the Clinton and Obama campaigns? Ask Joe Lieberman about hardline tactics.
Lots of regular people DO see the world the way Rush and Malkin do…that’s why they continue to be successful. Just because you disagree with them don’t be jealous of their success.
You sound to me like a Democrat who wants a piece of someone else’s pie instead of someone who feels disenfranchised by the Republican party.
If we are extremely lucky (think lotto ticket) and get the WH, it will be a fun thing to watch. If the party and pundits are not happy with George W Bush, just try to imagine it. If they can turn as a group into a back-stabbing, bad mouthing frenzy over his actions………they will slaughter the next one.
They have mostly grouped behind Romney. I can live with that (swish-swashy & all) but I sure pity him after the honeymoon. I assume he knows he has 3 months to ’round em up & ship em back’?
Romney is a bit of a “mudblood” as well.
His religion is one reason. He also has not always been a “pureblood” as well, and he is willing to be flexible when the data is in front of him.
Thankfully, 2008 will result in the checking of that faction. Romney, Giuliani, and McCain all are “mudbloods” and the GOP has turned its back on the hard-liners.
Whippet:
What I mean is that I keep hearing how America is up in arms over immigration and they want this hard ass policy and yet the party that is most likely to win this year is not the party of Malkin and Tancredo. So thus far voters do not seem to agree with the hardliners about what it is that voters want.
As for rich people buying elections, I am saying that in terms of a general election campaign finance reform has always been a winner because Americans are concerned about the effect on elections of money. They are concerned about how much it takes to run. Could a guy like Lincoln run today? Hell no, he was too poor.
That is what I mean. I am talking about how most of the electorate perceives what they hear.
And Rush is not accountable because of the money. Savage makes money and he is a neanderthal. Ron Paul has no trouble raising money and he has been associated with neo nazis. I am saying that Rush can make all sorts of statements about what Bush should do or McCain should do..as if he is some kind of expert, but he is not the one pursuing the policy. He is just a mouth.
And no I am not a Democrat. I voted for Bush, he bought this party a majority in 2002 and 2004 and after the loss of one election cycle we hear that shill Noonan accusing him of destroying the party. We hear people calling him Jorge.
So no, just because I say something you do not agree with does not make me a Democrat. I know you might think you get to decide what I am or am not, but you don’t. That is for me to decide.
My larger point is that unlike a lot of those real Republicans out there who are threatening to stay home if their personal favorite does not get the nomination, this heretic will do her duty and vote for the Republican and against the Democrat.
Indy,
Sorry – your first post needed to be moderated and I was at a B-day celebration. You should be able to post without being held up (unless you hit the spam filters, which happens to everyone!).
And whippet I don’t want anything from someone else’s pie. That is exactly the sort of crap I am talking about. I say something you do not like and wham bam thank you ma’am I want something for nothing.
Please.
Terrye,
All I said is McCain is left of me – just barely.
Aj:
I am not so sure he is. We tend to be so general about these things. I read somewhere that McCain is a big fan of Teddy Roosevelt. That is why he cares about conservation. I think some people hear that and assume that makes him a liberal. Once upon a time conservation was literally a conservative policy. It meant saving what is there.
McCain is pro life, consistently so. It is not a new position for him. He is a hawk and a fiscal conservative, so much so that he balks at tax cuts if they are not accompanied by spending cuts.
I think the real problem some of the pundits have with McCain is that he obviously does not care what they say.
Wiley,
No, I don’t think Iraq was much of an anchor – mainly because the Dems have never been able to use it and win. The best example is Senator Leiberman vs Ned Lamont. If the Iraq war was so bad Lieberman would not be back in the Senate. CT is very liberal. If it was such an anchor it would have destroyed Joe. Same thing with McCain. He is a stalwart supporter and yet he gets enormous independent support.
The fact is the only ones suffering defeat are the amnesty hypochondriacs, not the war supporters.
Well, you’re wrong about Lieberman and the effect Iraq had on the 2006 elections. Lamont was exposed as an incompetent junior varsity, who the far left propped up. While this was an important issue, it was just one, and Lieberman was shown to have principle and backbone. CT voters liked Lieberman on almost all other issues, and they liked his character, so he was easily elected.
Terrye, no one who supports factories of embryos for spare parts is ‘pro life’ – sorry. McCain is not pro-life, he is anti abortion – which is the choice of a mother and her pregnancy. But he is all for businesses killing thousands of human beings for spare part.
That makes he very much left of me. Pro killing embryos and pro man-made global warming. That is why I call McCain liberal.
AJ, Sorry for the multiple post. This is my first posting. Terrye, if by what you say that McCain is constantly “pro-life” why did he create the “gang of 14″ and stop the rule change in the Senate? Even Senator Lieberman used the “gang of 14″ by McCain to state just how not conservative he really is.
Terrye,
I didn’t say you WERE a Democrat I said you were sounding like one and it isn’t because I may disagree with you. I said I’m not crazy about Rush but the “market” decides if he AND Savage are successful. You think radio stations are going to keep them on if no one is listening? It’s a business and Rush and Savage still sells.
You made a comment about Rush making millions and doing nothing but yammer. I suspect that if either of us tried to walk a day in his shoes we’d be exhausted so don’t discount someone you disagree with just because you disagree with them. Yes, he is just a mouth and he is accountable to his fans and the radio stations that carry his show.
And campaign finance reform is a winner? Somehow McCain/Feingold is a winner (if that’s what you’re talking about) for keeping too much money from deciding an election? What about 527’s, what about the influence of a foreigner like George Soros dumping millions into 527’s that support Democratic candidates? What about those on the Republican side that do the same? If you’re talking about new campaign finance reform I’d like to see some of that too!
And no, I don’t get to decide what you are and YOU don’t get to decide what They are. That’s why this country is so great!
And just so you know…I voted for President Bush and would do so again. I just love the guy. He was my Governor here in Texas and I loved him then. I get very irritated when those on the right bash him but I don’t see it as an attempt to push for purity in the party. They want someone who believes more like they themselves do. How is that any different than all of us? I just don’t have much respect left for Peggy Noonan and others. But I will defend their right to say what they wish, I just won’t read it or listen.
And my comment about wanting something from someone elses pie has nothing to do with disagreeing with you other than your post appeared, to me, to hold nothing but disgust for Rush making millions.(and your comment about rich people)
If I have misinterpreted your comments, I stand corrected.
AJ,
“Pro killing embryos and pro man-made global warming. That is why I call McCain liberal.”
Thank you…see we can agree!
Whippet:
I am saying that campaign finance is a winner to the majority of Americans who are concerned about the impact of money on politics. I don’t think the bill did a good job of keeping money out of politics, I am not even sure it is possible. I am only saying that most Americans do not think it is a free speech issue, so much as a money issue.
As for walking a day in Rush’s shoes spare me. I make a living taking care of sick and dying people. I have to see and smell and touch things that would probably make Rush lose his lunch and I do it for a lot less money that Rush makes. Fine, at least I know when it is all said and done I served a useful function. I am not so sure the same can be said for Rush.
Terrye,
Then I guess you get to claim the moral highground?
No, no moral highground. I just don’t appreciate it when people assume that the reason I have gotten fed up with people like Coulter and Rush and Malkin is that I am jealous of their money. It is not. I am tired of them trying to bully the rest of the party into supporting their positions for fear we will be deemed less than worthy if we stray.
Terrye,
I never assumed that you were fed up with Rush, Malkin,etc. because you were jealous of their money. I understand why you are fed up with them, so am I. Bringing Rush’s millions into it gave the appearance of additional issues with them, that’s all.
And I have never felt bullied by them or deemed to be less worthy if I don’t think like them. I don’t give them that much power.
Why would anyone care about what other people say, or how they say it…if it’s something you disagree with and don’t want to have anything to do with in the first place?? I could care less what Rush thinks of people like me, or the candidates we vote for (or not).
It’s real easy….change the channel. I just turn it off or change the channel. I don’t know…it works for me.
Indy, no problem. I could have deleted them, but people sometimes add things each time they try to get through and it is easy to put them all up. Just a bunch of 1’s and 0’s!
Indy, no problem. I could have deleted them, but people sometimes add things each time they try to get through and it is easy to put them all up. Just a bunch of 1’s and 0’s!
Of course we don’t have to do what Limbaugh, Hannity, or Coulter tell us to. But it would be crazy to talk about them like they don’t have enormous power to influence people in the Republican party. They gained that influence through the power of the marketplace, but that doesn’t mean that they can be irresponsible with that power and not get called on it. Essentially, the talk radio guys and the bloggers are public intellectuals. They may not usually be identified as such, but that’s what they are. In the past, public intellectuals took their positions very seriously, and refused to abuse them. Guys like Buckley (before he became old and bitter), Podhoretz, and Bill Bennett were the Rush Limbaughs of their day. They didn’t strike out on a crusade to destroy the potential nominee of the GOP.
These guys are power political figures, and while they gained that position due to their own talents and abilities, they are acting in an irresponsible manner. If anyone has the power to destroy the GOP, it is these self-appointed movement leaders. They have been given an enormous honor due to a function of the marketplace. In my opinion, they are misusing it.
Oh, and as a McCain supporter (I’ve actually already voted for him in Missouri early voting), and as a person who sees McCain as a (flawed) conservative, I have to say I very often get extremely aggravated at some of his behavior. Any of us who agreed with the President (and McCain) on immigration issues have demonstrated tolerance at divergent views within the GOP, and any of us who supported Rudy (as I did before his campaign tanked) knew how to deal with someone who disagreed with us personally on some important issues, but McCain seems to really dislike a lot of people on the right. Not just disagree with them, but dislike them. As Rich Lowry said at National Review earlier today, “McCain has always given the impression of reserving his true scorn for his enemies within his own party. I have a hard time imagining McCain making this kind of dishonest accusation [against Romeny for advocating a withdrawl timetable]against a Democrat—it would be uncivil and dishonorable. But making it against a fellow Republican running to his right? No problem.” McCaing better damn well address this issue, before even his supporters (like me, after all I did vote for him) start to really regret that choice.
Catching up here on the interesting conversation. Whippet, you’re kind of a passive aggressive bully but I gotta give you a couple points. One for sure is, I did give Rush and a few others way too much respect for way too long. And I admit to feeling a degree of scorn — so sue me! I also did turn Rush off. Trouble is, if you engage in politics even part time, you bump into Rush at least once a day. It’s sorta like pop culture… I don’t want to know a thing about Brittney Spears but against my will I end up knowing she runs around without underwear flashing paparazzi when she’s not busy being a devoted Mom. And do I have an opinion on that? Yes, she is disgusting, she is a terrible example, and I wish she would go away forever.
Oh, and about the money. Yes indeed, Rush’s vast and much bragged on wealth gets my goat. Mainly because I’ve contributed thousands to his pot of gold, only to get a poke in the eye at a critical moment in American history, when he should be using his influence much more wisely and constructively.
Colin, just read your excellent post. Very well said, especially this:
“They have been given an enormous honor due to a function of the marketplace. In my opinion, they are misusing it.”
As for the latest rumble between Mac and Mitt. I think it was a rather ham handed attempt to refocus on nat’l security and the war, which is an area where McCain completely dominates. It is true unfortunately that Mitt has made more than a few unbelievably cringe-inducing statements and given very weak analysis about the war… to the point of inducing laughter and head slapping a couple times. Go back and check, you’ll see. However, I also think Mitt has “evolved” in the right direction on the issue, and was quite impressive in a couple recent debates. His instincts are no match for McCain’s on national security, but I believe the office & title would very quickly make the man, in the event Mitt becomes president.
I think McCain is just pointing out the fact that Romney is {shall we say} flexible on the war. He has evolved into his present position. Fine, I am not arguing with that, however, considering some of the really outrageous things people on the right say about McCain every day, are they really in any position to argue about his truthfulness or use of scorn?
SallyVee,
Some people just can’t stop the name calling….
And while I may disagree with him, Rush has the right to speak out about any candidate he disagrees with just like you and I do.
Whippet, I know. Namecalling is a hard habit to break but I’ve gotten so much better since I stopped listening to Rush.
Sometimes I hear that word RINO and it triggers a PTSD event, but they seem to get shorter every time.
SallyVee,
Yeah, my blood pressure goes up every time I hear Hillary’s voice…grates on me like fingernails on a chalkboard. That’s why I turn off the t.v. or radio whenever she comes on. I’d rather not bring out that side in myself!
I don’t see McCain as stronger on war/defense — unless he is going to put on a uniform and direct troops from the whitehouse they are about equal.